Genelec 8330+7350 or Neumann KH 120 II+KH750 for casual music enjoyment

[Netrunner]

Hi Everyone, I've been following this wonderful source of knowledge that is this forum for a long time - many thanks to you all!

I finally decided to buy a set of nearfield monitors (it will be huge upgrade from my very budget Logitech speakers). I am a complete amateur and I plan to use the purchased set for my PC desktop setup only for listening to music for pleasure (all genres), or while playing games or watching movies (together with my fiancée) - at a distance of about 70-80 cm in a completely untreated room of about 30 square meters (in the corner of the room). Therefore, I am keen on a user-friendly DSP.

After a very thorough research I managed to narrow down my choice to the following sets:
1) Genelec 8330 + 7350 (+ GLM)
2) Neumann KH 80 + KH 750 (+ Neumann MA 1)
3) Neumann KH 120 II + KH 750 (+ Neumann MA 1)
or possibly
*4) Neumann KH 120 II (and possibly buy a sub later if I come to the conclusion that I lack bass)

Unfortunately I have no possibility of listening to them locally, and the prices of these sets are quite similar here.
I would be grateful for any advice and suggestions!

 

[unpluggged]

My two cents, FWIW.

I would probably go for the Neumann KH 120 II + KH 750 DSP + MA 1 kit. Primarily for practicality reasons (sound-wise they both are great options, especially with room correction):

1) Neumann KH 120 II are even more hiss-free than the KH 120 and even than the KH 310, as per Sound and Recording measurements. Don't know about the Genelecs, but they usually hiss more. It could be significant at these short listening distances.
2) KH 750 DSP looks much nicer in home interiors than the Genelec subs
3) Neumanns connect directly to the Ethernet network and expose their filter settings so they can be read and set by third-party tools, like the open-source khtool (GLM is a serial interface based on RS-422 and must use the hardware GLM box to interface with the network).
4) MA 1 kit physically is just a standard analog mic with XLR connector and a standard correction file that can be used for other measurements. e.g. with REW.
5) Neumanns are front-ported, that could help with their placement near walls.

Genelecs, OTOH, are three-way and also coaxial, that could be useful in the near field. But in practice we know that Neumanns have no issues with IMD and their directivity (I'm talking about the old KH 120 now) is very good for desktop listening. They are much better than, say, AMT-based speakers in this regard. The KH 120 II should be even better due to the even further optimized waveguide.

 

[Kyle_PL]

I would connect it digitally, so KH 120 II + KH 750 DSP + MA1 + interface with phantom mic input, and digital volume control on SPDIF output or Genelec 8330A + Genelec 7350A + Genelec Calibration KIT, and digital AES/EBU output (volume control is on Genelec Calibration KIT + volume knob or pilot).

5) Neumanns are front-ported, that could help with their placement near walls.

Genelec said: minimum 5cm from rear wall for rear port - do You really need less?

 

[DJBonoBobo]

I don't know the Genelec, but my advise is to start without a subwoofer. This keeps things much more simple and the KH120II are very capable already. You can get a sub anytime later, if you think you need it.
There is a big difference between KH80 and 120II, the 80s are good, but much smaller and more limited. I would chose the 80s over the 120II only if it has to be as small as possible.

 

[Kyle_PL]

Do You have some info about failture rate? (Neumann vs Genelec) Genelec has a very low failure rate from what I've heard.

 

[Netrunner]

Thank you for your replies.

(...) Genelec 8330A + Genelec 7350A + Genelec Calibration KIT, and digital AES/EBU output (volume control is on Genelec Calibration KIT + volume knob or pilot).

So, if I were to go with a Genelec set, I previously thought I could use the Topping DX3 Pro+ for this (which I just ordered for my headphones). However, as from what I understand, it doesn't have digital output, only analog connection would be possible - what would be the disadvantages of this solution?

If I were to stick to the digital path, what would you recommend I connect it to my PC/laptop so that I can control the volume outside of the GLM app (which I probably won't be able to install on my work laptop)?

 

[Kyle_PL]

To control Volume on Genelec SAM monitors, You need Genelec GLM Kit + Genelec 9310B.

About analog connection: self noise could be bigger (I dont tested it yet). ... and on analog connection You will have interface DA conversion, AD conversion on sub, and DA conversion on sub ... and AD conversion on monitors. So on analog connection will be many DA-AD-DA-AD conversions.

 

[Netrunner]

I decided to try Genelec - sorry for the amateur question, but could someone please confirm that I can connect it this way?

PC -> USB -> Topping 10s ->XLR male to RCA male (pro snake AES/EBU SPDIF Cable Male 3) ->7350 -> XLR female -> XLR male (pro snake 29018 AES/EBU Cable) -> Genelecs 8330

 

[unpluggged]

XLR male to RCA male (pro snake AES/EBU SPDIF Cable Male 3)

This might not work, depending on Genelec's input parameters. You might want to at least use an impedance transformer such as the Neutrik NADITBNC-M or the Canare BCJ-XP-TRC, but YMMV. So it's better to ask Genelec directly beforehand.

Neumanns, OTOH, work with SPDIF signals.

 

[Kyle_PL]

For conversion TOSLINK -> AES/EBU im using MUTEC MC 1.1+. We need cheaper converters in the market.

 

[Halbknapp]

Genelec can be connected digitally with a USB to Aes/ebu adapter (Aliexpress 25€/$). You can also use about any USB to Coax digital adapter and then a Coax to aes/ebu cable. Same for Neumann - anything that outputs coaxial digital signal will do. Just control the volume digitally from the source (pc volume slider for example). You can set what 100% will output from the speaker in the GLM or Neumann Ma1 System. There is really no point in going in analog except if you absolutely have to, as the speaker will anyway convert to digital again to do dsp correction. While both 8330 and KH120ii can output quite some low end I would always go with a sub to get more extension and not lack low bass and simply get the sub in a better position to play bass as the main speakers can be. And always use the respective measurement systems as you will absolutely always have big room resonances that will make the speaker sound boomy and not clean as it would be with room correction. I have genelec and Neumann and can recommend both in general, noise is not any issue for both (if gain is set right and/or digital input used). Only for further away listening I recommend genelec (with sub!) more because the wider dispersion will sound a bit more balanced. That is not a criteria for near field though.

 

[Kyle_PL]

Only for further away listening I recommend genelec (with sub!)

Further away listening - bigger/more powerfull speakers should be used.

For example:
1m distance - Genelec 8330A+7350A
2m - Genelec 8340A+7360A
3m - Genelec 8350A+7370A

 

[Netrunner]

Genelec can be connected digitally with a USB to Aes/ebu adapter (Aliexpress 25€/$). You can also use about any USB to Coax digital adapter and then a Coax to aes/ebu cable. Same for Neumann - anything that outputs coaxial digital signal will do. Just control the volume digitally from the source (pc volume slider for example). You can set what 100% will output from the speaker in the GLM or Neumann Ma1 System. There is really no point in going in analog except if you absolutely have to, as the speaker will anyway convert to digital again to do dsp correction. While both 8330 and KH120ii can output quite some low end I would always go with a sub to get more extension and not lack low bass and simply get the sub in a better position to play bass as the main speakers can be. And always use the respective measurement systems as you will absolutely always have big room resonances that will make the speaker sound boomy and not clean as it would be with room correction. I have genelec and Neumann and can recommend both in general, noise is not any issue for both (if gain is set right and/or digital input used). Only for further away listening I recommend genelec (with sub!) more because the wider dispersion will sound a bit more balanced. That is not a criteria for near field though.

I ordered this USB to AES adapter and Topping d10s (before I learned about these USB to AES adapters from aliexpress) and will be testing it whether there is any difference. I admit that I am quite skeptical when it comes to "cheap solutions ordered from Aliexpress" - so, is there anything I should pay special attention to when testing it? Or in the case of the digital solutions, will the only indicator be that something does not work at all - because if it works, it means it works just fine...?

In my case, the listening distance will be about 1m.

However, I realize that my conditions are far from ideal and the problem with the sub is that it can only be placed deep under the desk by the wall and I wonder how much "real benefit" there will be from a sub placed like this vs. let's say 2 larger monitors on the desk. Maybe taking into consideration my limited conditions, it would be better to just go with 2 larger monitors instead of smaller ones + sub (?).

 

[badboygolf16v]

I own Genelec, owned Neumann in the past. I think you are getting a worthwhile advantage with the KH 120II/KH 750 hardware over the 8330/7350.

GLM is better than MA 1 but in a 2.1 system like this both will do the job.

 

[Kyle_PL]

Hard to tell which is better. Genelec is very reliable, and Neuman ... only "not bad". Neuman KH 120 II taking 17W at idle - something getting pretty warm inside them (Genelec 8330 - 3W).
Another thing is digital connection: Neumann KH 120 II have "chinch"/RCA - this connector don't have 75 Ohm impedance (only BNC have) - why they inserting this RCA instead of BNC? What interesting: Neumann KH 750DSP have rightful BNC connector

On the other hand "they said" Neumann KH 120 II have lower self noise.

On Genelec GLM calibration kit You have calibration mic, digital volume controler (if You buy 9310B knob) and this "BOX" for mic and volume connection, and on Neuman MA1 You have only mic (You need to buy interface with phantom +48V mic input, and with digital volume control on digital output - if You want digital connection which i recommend)

Hard to tell which solution is better.

 

[Halbknapp]

Sub will still work perfectly on your setup, mine too is under a desk. About sound quality of these cheap USB to aes/ebu Aliexpress adapters i can tell that it made a clear improvement when using it on my genelecs versus analog input. They sounded clearer with the digital inputs which for me at very least means the digital to aes adapter does no harm (but my cheap analog audio interface may do).

 

[Pritaudio]

What about Neumann kh150 vs kh120ii and kh750 sub.
Would you still start off without a sub?

 

[Kyle_PL]

KH120II+KH750DSP will give much deeper bass, than KH150 alone.

 

[Pritaudio]

KH120II+KH750DSP will give much deeper bass, than KH150 alone.

But will the woofer on the kh120ii be used for midrange only (mostly), and the sub for the bass.
And will the lower midrange be omnidirectional.

 

[Kyle_PL]

And will the lower midrange be omnidirectional.

Under 400Hz waves are "omnidirectional" - no matter if radiated from satellites, or subwoofer.