Neumann KH80 DSP Monitor Measurements #3

[Pearljam5000]

Well, while we're being subjective, I still prefer the KH80 + sub to most of the speakers I've reviewed and measured on their own. I'd 100% take the KH80+sub over the Genelec 8341As sans sub, and though I only briefly compared them side by side, I did spend forever listening to both speakers independently. Both with sub its a tossup if you have enough headroom for your tastes and setup. Maybe a small edge to the 8341As, but it's a blip.

I've extensively measured and listened to too many speakers in different environments to think there are clear cut 'better' speakers at this level of performance. Small tweaks in placement, listening in a different room can alter your picture of a speaker, especially if not doing direct comparisons with other speakers. The 8341A, for example, is fantastic, one of the best speakers I ever heard, but it also wasn't magic compared to other very flat speakers. It was just a speaker with few flaws. Which is exactly what a good speaker is.

Once bass is accounted for, and assuming both speakers are within their headroom comfort zone (which admittedly can be ambiguous), I'm willing to bet 90% of what people end up preferring has to do with minor differences in directivity and its interaction with your room.

Did you also compare KH80 to KH120?

 

[YSC]

Well, while we're being subjective, I still prefer the KH80 + sub to most of the speakers I've reviewed and measured on their own. I'd 100% take the KH80+sub over the Genelec 8341As sans sub, and though I only briefly compared them side by side, I did spend forever listening to both speakers independently. Both with sub its a tossup if you have enough headroom for your tastes and setup. Maybe a small edge to the 8341As, but it's a blip.

I've extensively measured and listened to too many speakers in different environments to think there are clear cut 'better' speakers at this level of performance. Small tweaks in placement, listening in a different room can alter your picture of a speaker, especially if not doing direct comparisons with other speakers. The 8341A, for example, is fantastic, one of the best speakers I ever heard, but it also wasn't magic compared to other very flat speakers. It was just a speaker with few flaws. Which is exactly what a good speaker is.

Once bass is accounted for, and assuming both speakers are within their headroom comfort zone (which admittedly can be ambiguous), I'm willing to bet 90% of what people end up preferring has to do with minor differences in directivity and its interaction with your room.

I do think after reaching the level of a reasonably flat speaker, the form factor or even ease of integration with sub makes the dominant decision factor.

For example in my home where wardrobe occupies 1/3 of my room, I have only 1.8m*3m of floor space, in such case the 8030 which can be placed very close to the front wall and the easy integration with the 7040A which is considered a meh subwoofer makes me very satisfied as it's slim profile and simple dip switches curves gives me freedom to optimize it's location, which say the KH750DSP, while being a better subwoofer, leaves me no room to optimize it's placement without killing my toes every time I move around.

Genelec 83xx line and Neumann DSP line they both have their respective room correction package to do a quick DSP in real room looks like the major advantage compared to a lot of competitors, same goes for the budget line with the typical switch based curves to counter less than ideal placement. I've never used those DSP based speakers, but in my very limited experience using the dip switches in the 8030C and 7040A, those are real night and day experience, especially say the flat setting 8030C vs only toggle the desktop switch, which is where I put them on, by default the 8030C sounded very muddy and boomy due to the reflection, after using the dip switch, though there are still deep trough and peaks, it sounds much more lively and "real" to my ears, those room modes are always the dominant factors which I also believe why so many speakers with awful looking measurement actually get their market, as those modes masked their deficiency

 

[tktran303]

Well, while we're being subjective, I still prefer the KH80 + sub to most of the speakers I've reviewed and measured on their own. I'd 100% take the KH80+sub over the Genelec 8341As sans sub, and though I only briefly compared them side by side, I did spend forever listening to both speakers independently. Both with sub its a tossup if you have enough headroom for your tastes and setup. Maybe a small edge to the 8341As, but it's a blip.

I've extensively measured and listened to too many speakers in different environments to think there are clear cut 'better' speakers at this level of performance. Small tweaks in placement, listening in a different room can alter your picture of a speaker, especially if not doing direct comparisons with other speakers. The 8341A, for example, is fantastic, one of the best speakers I ever heard, but it also wasn't magic compared to other very flat speakers. It was just a speaker with few flaws. Which is exactly what a good speaker is.

Once bass is accounted for, and assuming both speakers are within their headroom comfort zone (which admittedly can be ambiguous), I'm willing to bet 90% of what people end up preferring has to do with minor differences in directivity and its interaction with your room.

Napilopez

Have you owned or heard a good 3 or 4 way (100+L) cabinets + subs?
Line arrays?
Full dipoles?

 

[YSC]

Napilopez

Have you owned or heard a good 3 or 4 way (100+L) cabinets + subs?
Line arrays?
Full dipoles?

I think that's altogether another league or usecase, such full size systems are for large listening room, probably well treated and perfected by any DSP means in cost no object scenario, while the simple KH80+sub would be in small to medium sized rooms/studios, you can't put the full size stuffs into a small room physically in reasonable listening distance, while if you put the KH80 into those large rooms of course it will run out of steam and sound thin or so.

 

[Slyman]

It seems like the consensus on this forum is that adding a subwoofer is preferable to buying bigger monitors (subwoofer > 8" monitors) while on other forums its the opposite due to room problems, coordinating the sub with the satellites, placement etc... Which seems more logical. Specially if you don't have a perfectly treated room.

Is it really true that neumann kh80 + a cheaper subwoofer with 100hz crossover would be better for a mixing purposes in a non-treated than say.. The Kali IN-8? I mean doesn't sitting in front of the 8" woofers makes handling the bass easier and also more pleasureable?

 

[DJBonoBobo]

It depends on the room, but in smaller rooms you will probably suffer from severe dips in bass response between around 70 to 100 Hz when using "bookshelf" speakers (can be different with big tower speakers). You may not be able to fix these without subs if you want the monitors in ear-height (of course). In my room not even 2 PSI AVAAs helped. I often posted this older measurement i made (suboptimal eq, but you see what i mean) where you can see what i got from an 8 inch with and without sub in a small room (14 sqm)

Neumann KH 310 + KH 750 DSP in a small room (14 m²).
View attachment 64972

Removable passive absorbtion: 2x Basotect 1x0.4m "corner traps", 3x Basotect 1x0.25m panels, 3x Basotect 1x0.12m panels.
Non removable passive absorbtion: 2x Basotect 1x0.10m panels left and right, 2x Basotect 1x0.12m panels at ceiling, big open closet at back wall.
Listening distance: 1.30 meters.
RTA MMM all channels at LP (var smoothing)
Black: sub active, passive absorbtion present, eq active, 2x PSI AVAA active (positioned at back wall)
Blue: sub deactivated, most passive absorbtion removed from room, eq deactivated, AVAA deactivated
Green: sub deactivated, passive absorbtion present, eq deactivated, AVAA deactivated
Red: sub active, passive absorbtion present, eq active, AVAA deactivated

 

[Frgirard]

It seems like the consensus on this forum is that adding a subwoofer is preferable to buying bigger monitors (subwoofer > 8" monitors) while on other forums its the opposite due to room problems, coordinating the sub with the satellites, placement etc... Which seems more logical. Specially if you don't have a perfectly treated room.

Is it really true that neumann kh80 + a cheaper subwoofer with 100hz crossover would be better for a mixing purposes in a non-treated than say.. The Kali IN-8? I mean doesn't sitting in front of the 8" woofers makes handling the bass easier and also more pleasureable?

The old k+h o300 three way with a 8'was listenable at 0,75 cm.

The size of the woofer when is little, doesn’t matter.
The most important is the room with his modal support and the location with his reflections.

 

[Frgirard]

The old k+h o300 three way with a 8'was listenable at 0,75 cm.

The size of the woofer when is little, doesn’t matter.
The most important is the room with his modal support and the location with his reflections.

You have two schools.
1 one woofer between the two speakers.
2 two woofers near each speaker cut around 120 150 hz to tame floor cancelation.

 

[abdo123]

Well, while we're being subjective, I still prefer the KH80 + sub to most of the speakers I've reviewed and measured on their own. I'd 100% take the KH80+sub over the Genelec 8341As sans sub, and though I only briefly compared them side by side, I did spend forever listening to both speakers independently. Both with sub its a tossup if you have enough headroom for your tastes and setup. Maybe a small edge to the 8341As, but it's a blip.

I've extensively measured and listened to too many speakers in different environments to think there are clear cut 'better' speakers at this level of performance. Small tweaks in placement, listening in a different room can alter your picture of a speaker, especially if not doing direct comparisons with other speakers. The 8341A, for example, is fantastic, one of the best speakers I ever heard, but it also wasn't magic compared to other very flat speakers. It was just a speaker with few flaws. Which is exactly what a good speaker is.

Once bass is accounted for, and assuming both speakers are within their headroom comfort zone (which admittedly can be ambiguous), I'm willing to bet 90% of what people end up preferring has to do with minor differences in directivity and its interaction with your room.

I'm sorry but why is this comparison valid at all? the subwoofer can be crossed high enough that all of the KH80 shortcomings would disappear.

I mean what's the point? Ofcourse it will sound great once you fix everything 'wrong' with it.

 

[Matias]

Fine thats your opinion, in below animation (Toggles per 1500mS) KH80 & 8030C is overlaid based Amir's data..

View attachment 136254

What I focused more my attention in this comparisson is the orange line in the first graph, predicted in-room response. There we can see how the Genelec 8030c has a more tilted down response, higher mid bass and low mids as well. Should sound somewhat darker than the Neumann KH 80 DSP.

 

[Slyman]

The old k+h o300 three way with a 8'was listenable at 0,75 cm.

The size of the woofer when is little, doesn’t matter.
The most important is the room with his modal support and the location with his reflections.

Ofcourse but doesn't a 10" subwoofer on the floor down to 20hz create more modal/reflection problems than a 8" inch woofer facing u on the table down to 38hz?

 

[DJBonoBobo]

Ofcourse but doesn't a 10" subwoofer on the floor down to 20hz create more modal/reflection problems than a 8" inch woofer facing u on the table down to 38hz?

Only below 38Hz which is much less relevant than ~80Hz area. (given you use EQ for peaks, which is mandatory in almost any case)

 

[BYRTT]

What I focused more my attention in this comparisson is the orange line in the first graph, predicted in-room response. There we can see how the Genelec 8030c has a more tilted down response, higher mid bass and low mids as well. Should sound somewhat darker than the Neumann KH 80 DSP.

About 8030C notice they dial in power response to follow ideals and also notice from 3kHz and up DI (diretivity index) flattens out meaning hotter power response than area where DI curve follows idaeal curve so it make sense dial in system with a falling curve as frequency increase, for KH 80 curve is probably perfect for nearfield listening but for farfield use say 2 meters and up will mean the underbow we see for DI curve verse ideal curve say 80-1200Hz shall be EQed in so that power response is some bit less hot and bit closer to ideal curve in that area as is seen for 8030C.

 

[Frgirard]

Ofcourse but doesn't a 10" subwoofer on the floor down to 20hz create more modal/reflection problems than a 8" inch woofer facing u on the table down to 38hz?

It has no connection.

The modal support is the room.
The reflection is the listening position and the location of the speakers (wall distance).

A speaker does not sit on a table but on a stand and at a height that allows as much as possible to avoid the reflections due to the desk.

A woofer far from the floor and you will have floor cancelation.

Neumann as genelec have documentations on their website who answers at your questions.

 

[Matias]

If we have an ADC and DAC inside the KH80DSP, why doesn't Neumann enable AES-EBU digital input on the monitors like Kii does? Should be just a firmware update!

View attachment 135974

@Markus @ Neumann here is an idea. I know you can't promise anything but just for your consideration.

 

[Pearljam5000]

Another Idea

@Markus @ Neumann here is an idea. I know you can't promise anything but just for your consideration.

Another idea
KH165- 6.5 inch woofer monitor
KH180- 8 inch woofer monitor

 

[LTig]

Another Idea

Another idea
KH165- 6.5 inch woofer monitor
KH180- 8 inch woofer monitor

Agreed to the KH165. No to the KH180, as a 2-way it would be worse than the KH310.

What's missing is the KH510 (successor of the O500C) although it's far out of my financial reach.

 

[Pearljam5000]

Agreed to the KH165. No to the KH180, as a 2-way it would be worse than the KH310.

What's missing is the KH510 (successor of the O500C) although it's far out of my financial reach.

I'm not sure about that
They could just do what Genelec does and have an 8 inch 2-way (8050) and an 8 inch 3-way (8351)

 

[pozz]

O500C

These were around EUR 20k, if I remember right.

 

[LTig]

These were around EUR 20k, if I remember right.

A guy I met at my local dealer who had bought them said he had paid €15k.