Is it Groundhog Week this week?
That is not even a remote answer to the question.
And I have absolutely no idea the answer to yours (see, that's rather easy to admit), but I'd be willing to bet that one of two scenarios occured:
They identified an area (or areas) in need of improvement.
Or
Marketing inisited that new tweeters sell more speakers.
not at all... he's noise with no signal... many here know this already...Until now you were convinced that the guy is just about to pull trigger on some 10k SOTA monitors, just a few more tidbits of information short?
I have not and do not claim that they are perfect.Yes Genelec is known for developing new drivers for "marketing " makes sense ..*rolls eyes *
Like I said nothing is perfect
Unless you claim their tweeter is perfect .
Anyways after more than 10 years I would expect *some changes to *
That's it.
Again I'm not saying it has to be changedI have not and do not claim that they are perfect.
But, tweeters are a component of an overall system. They must integrate with and perform well relative to the design goals and parameters of a given system. If Neumann were to simply change out the tweeter for something that differed in performance characteristics (otherwise, why change it at all, apart from marketing?), other components of the speaker system would also need to be adjusted - the crossover at minimum. So, again, what specifically about the tweeter in modern Neumann speakers should be changed that could potentially improve their overall speaker systems?
To be clear, I'm not claiming that there are no such things, but so far nothing has been defined beyond "they're old" and "other companies have changed tweeters". These alone are not valid reasons to make adjustments.
Not all HiFi people are so stupid, but sometimes just missing relevant data. I wasn't dealing about any SUB never before. Just red 1000 times that closed are better for transient response and for music. If it was one big lie, OK. I can change my mind and start thinking about ported one. I just wanted lowest possible distortion and seamless joint with speakers. I'm not crazy fan of one solution and hater of another. Just thinking.@AgentWet Did you had a look at the measurements of your favourite woofer? Thanks Trell for the link and the data!
For the level you refer the thd is between 10-30%. That's pretty normal btw, not that bad actually.
The text of the test has a mistake - doubling the distance is 6dB down, not 9dB.
Now look at this graph:
THD at 90dBSpl ... is >10% for a wide range! And goes up like crazy when you rise the level.
But that's simply how a closed sub measures - these are not bad subwoofers by any means. These "bicycle tire suspension" subs often measure way worse with high THD even at low levels and high frequencies.
The reflex subwoofer has significant less THD - cause the tube adds up to 10dB SPL with it's resonance. But you know which one sounds better ...
So the Neumann sub is pretty where it belongs to for a very good 10" with closed volume. The Arendal goes louder as it should do with it's bigger membrane and when you compare THD it's about the amount you expect from the bigger membrane. Neumann don't specifies CEA 2010 measurements - cause they are useless for clean monitoring. And Aarendal doesn't secifies 3% THD sound level - cause it gives a pretty low value, even for a good sub. And HiFi people don't know anyways what these measurements are.
Again, it only makes sense if....it makes sense.Again I'm not saying it has to be changed
I'm saying there's a new generation now and the old tweeter has been used for over 10 years now and other companies in this time frame has at least improved the previous generation tweeter if not completely replaced it
So it only makes sense it will also happen with Neumann .
Just red 1000 times that closed are better for transient response and for music. If it was one big lie, OK. I can change my mind and start thinking about ported one.
Not all HiFi people are so stupid, but sometimes just missing relevant data. I wasn't dealing about any SUB never before. Just red 1000 times that closed are better for transient response and for music. If it was one big lie, OK. I can change my mind and start thinking about ported one. I just wanted lowest possible distortion and seamless joint with speakers. I'm not crazy fan of one solution and hater of another. Just thinking.
Thanks. I think that such as all things, also SUB theme need some time and experiences. I'm not interested in modern action movies too much, so I don't need brute power at 16-20Hz. If I should spend some money on SUB it will be for music mostly. There you need fast transient and low GD. And my room is very small. Only 42m². And if some explosion in movie will be weaker, that is more benefit than loss for me. I need to study harmonic distortion theme and correlation between frequency and hearable % more.Closed IS better, esp. for music. Reflex measures less THD. Decide - sound or one measurement parameter ;-)
For music you don't need full power at 20-30Hz. Instruments which have these low frequencies have reduced output there. That's one of the causes we don't hear THD in this frequency area well - cause the natural behaviour of the instruments is often >100% "THD".
(The table with detectable THD was tested with sine signals. Ear is way more sensitive this way but still is a good scale to have a "worst case" scenario, you are more then save when your speaker is able to do that)
You can EQ a closed sub in the room as you like! It just looses max level if you push it +15dB at 20Hz - you just need more subwoofers then. You can't EQ a ported sub lower as the tuning frequency is - there is very little output and you will destroy the chassis. The 12dB/octave slope of the closed cabinet fits to room gain (if your room is smallish) - you can achive linear FR to very low frequencies when everything fits.
And group delay. And sensitivity to voicecoil heating. "Nullpunktverschiebung" (sorry, don't remember the englisch term - its past midnight here ;-)). No port noises. No port resonances. Smaller.
So for music it's 100% closed subs for me. For home cinema you can also use a 20-25Hz tuned sub for more output - but I simply use more closed subs ;-) (that's the reason for 6x 10" for my home cinema. For music 2 would be perfectly fine)
There is nothing cooler as an explosion which ends as fast as it happens. These effects are not "booooommmm" - they should be "*BAM*" . When you have experienced that once you don't get back to ported subwoofers.
Thanks. I think that such as all things, also SUB theme need some time and experiences. I'm not interested in modern action movies too much, so I don't need brute power at 16-20Hz. If I should spend some money on SUB it will be for music mostly. There you need fast transient and low GD. And my room is very small. Only 42m². And if some explosion in movie will be weaker, that is more benefit than loss for me. I need to study harmonic distortion theme and correlation between frequency and hearable % more.
But I'm still thinking that KH150 could be enough for me. My basic room mode is 36Hz and I'm not listening at very high levels anymore. And from Amirs measurements it looks fantastic up to 95db. And 36Hz is low enough for most of the music and instruments. I red some theory about lowest octaves in small rooms, which says that there is no chance to reproduce lower frequency than the one which's half of the wavelength = length of the room correctly. Does it make sense?
The good news is you will eventually be right.Again I'm not saying it has to be changed
I'm saying there's a new generation now and the old tweeter has been used for over 10 years now and other companies in this time frame has at least improved the previous generation tweeter if not completely replaced it
So it only makes sense it will also happen with Neumann .
The good news is you will eventually be right.
We may not be alive to experience but you will be right.
And that is what this forum is for many. Being right (or at least arguing until the other person gives up)
No need to wait , I'm already rightThe good news is you will eventually be right.
We may not be alive to experience but you will be right.
And that is what this forum is for many. Being right (or at least arguing until the other person gives up)
Compared to the KH120ii - there is not a lot of missing for most songs.
Thanks. Funny is, that this theory is spread here even from a speaker manufacturer. He is saying that at frequencies where the half length of the wave is longer than the longest wall in the room the pressure is unstable and try to leak from every small hole. So that open doors is enough to loose this pressure, and that there is problem to solve it.This theory is still floating around but is complete nonsense. Why should it be? I never heard a physical argument for it.
When it would be true you could not hear low frequencies in a car. But the opposite is true - a (stiff enough) car helps low frequecies.
A room significant smaller as the wavelenght acts as a pressure chamber. In a room significant bigger as the wavelength you have wave propagation. And in between there is a transition zone - as so often in acoustics.
A pressure chamber raises SPL level with lower frequencies by 12dB/octave. A speaker in closed box falls with 12dB/oct. I build pressure chambers for physical tests on microphones and pressure sensors and these are linear down to DC (so you can build up static pressure when you build it right).
Room gain in rooms start pretty late, 15-30Hz. So in your room it's likely you don't even recognise it.
But ALWAYS it's no problem to produce sound pressure level at low frequencies regardless of the size of the room. And our ear is a PRESSURE receiver - so it's purely the sound pressure we need for hearing.
Very low frequencies - my main system goes down to 20Hz linear. Compared to the KH120ii - there is not a lot of missing for most songs. But WHEN there is some useful information down there it's pretty cool (often it's just rumble or some mistake during recording)
So for a reference system (like mine for mastering and mixing) there is definitely a benefit of very low frequency extension. But you can nicely listen to music without it.
My own experience is that in my room 3.4x5.6m (half wave for 30Hz) I don't hear under 29Hz but my furniture and microphone hear it. Maybe problem with my ears, who knows...Thanks. Funny is, that this theory is spread here even from a speaker manufacturer. He is saying that at frequencies where the half length of the wave is longer than the longest wall in the room the pressure is unstable and try to leak from every small hole. So that open doors is enough to loose this pressure, and that there is problem to solve it.
I also don't think that you can't hear 20Hz in small room, but maybe there is problem to keep the same level or slope at all frequencies with doors, windows,... open or close.
Acoustics is not an easy discipline...
Interesting. I’m not a big fan of resonating furniture. I think that 32Hz is more than enough.My own experience is that in my room 3.4x5.6m (half wave for 30Hz) I don't hear under 29Hz but my furniture and microphone hear it. Maybe problem with my ears, who knows...
for those low freq errors, sub(s) are especially handy as heck... and one of the main reasons I listen carefully to the sub-info in any outgoing overdub tracks or recordings I work on... you can't fix what you can't hear......Very low frequencies - my main system goes down to 20Hz linear. Compared to the KH120ii - there is not a lot of missing for most songs. But WHEN there is some useful information down there it's pretty cool... ...(often it's just rumble or some mistake during recording)