Neumann KH120 II

[dickiefunk]

I’ve been considering changing my Eve TS108 for the Neumann KH750dsp to use with my KH120’s but from what I understand, once I’ve calibrated the system using the MA1 I can’t then use the Neumann control app without overwriting the calibration settings?

 

[IamJF]

I’ve been considering changing my Eve TS108 for the Neumann KH750dsp to use with my KH120’s but from what I understand, once I’ve calibrated the system using the MA1 I can’t then use the Neumann control app without overwriting the calibration settings?

As I undserstood it the Neumann app is only a pre-configuration of the setup, depending on distances and your room. The measurements are a real setup/configuration, I would not see a use for the app?
But you can save your measurements now as presets, so you can overwrite the measurements with the app and restore it afterwards.

 

[IamJF]

Low frequencies ... we don't really "hear" 20Hz, it's more a "feel". You more likely hear the overtones. Just tried it - there is a transition from 30-27Hz from a clear tone to a "feel". I can not hear a real tone at 25Hz. The 20Hz hearing border is questioned - but we notice these low frequencies.

For mixing it helps a lot to have these frequencies, you notive immediatly if something is wrong. But you could also have a look at a good RTA and set your filters properly - it's just a lottle slower and less fun ;-)
"You can't fix what you can't hear" is axactly why I went with the non environment room and broadband speakers. You don't hear reverb on your recordings when your room add more reverb as the recording ... for really dry vocals and voice you need a dry room to monitor them.

IMD is a function of harmonic distortion. A lot of THD will lead to a lot of IMD. To be honest I don't need it for my speaker developments (as waterfall diagrams - you see resonances as good in different measurements when you know where to look) but everybody has it's own preferences and "handwriting" in development. I just would not overestimate them, it's great to compare stuff but hard to get a valued mesurement value.

If you can do a proper setup a sub is often better as just 2 speakers simply cause of SBIR.

 

[goat76]

For mixing it helps a lot to have these frequencies, you notive immediatly if something is wrong. But you could also have a look at a good RTA and set your filters properly - it's just a lottle slower and less fun ;-)
"You can't fix what you can't hear" is axactly why I went with the non environment room and broadband speakers. You don't hear reverb on your recordings when your room add more reverb as the recording ... for really dry vocals and voice you need a dry room to monitor them.

And that's something I think more people here, who are just interested in hearing the high-fidelity experience of a recording, should do something about. Fixing the acoustics of their listening environment will most likely be a better upgrade to the sound, than going out buying better speakers ones in a while.

 

[thecheapseats]

And that's something I think more people here, who are just interested in hearing the high-fidelity experience of a recording, should do something about. Fixing the acoustics of their listening environment will most likely be a better upgrade to the sound, than going out buying better speakers ones in a while.

yep... before you spend 500, 5000 or 500,000 on any hardware - fix/prep the damn room...

(long ago, that was the best advice I ever received)...

 

[mj30250]

Thanks. Funny is, that this theory is spread here even from a speaker manufacturer. He is saying that at frequencies where the half length of the wave is longer than the longest wall in the room the pressure is unstable and try to leak from every small hole. So that open doors is enough to loose this pressure, and that there is problem to solve it.
I also don't think that you can't hear 20Hz in small room, but maybe there is problem to keep the same level or slope at all frequencies with doors, windows,... open or close.
Acoustics is not an easy discipline...
I think, that I don't need to hear 20Hz in music. I think, that 32Hz is enough for 99% of it (except organs, lowest tone of grand piano and modern EM) So maybe KH150 could be fine, with MA1 in my small 42m² room with some room gain at 36Hz. I think, that KH120II will need a SUB. There is almost a half octave difference at 90db between KH150 and 120II. So I'm still scratching my head if 120II with SUB or 150 without

Even if you aren't after ultra-low frequencies, I believe that there is a lot to be said for the flexibility offered by proper bass management via subs. The KH 750 is certainly not an inexpensive sub, but a pair of 120 IIs + KH 750 + MA 1 could = an incredibly high quality, well integrated setup that could be put into operation in an hour or so. Of course, you may have to power through some annoyances / bugs with the somewhat infamous MA 1 software, but outside of that, the process is quite simple and very effective.

For my desktop setup, I personally wanted to free up space under the desk so I tossed my (old) sub and opted for standalone KH 150s. As an avowed bass-head whose main setup contains multiple large subs, I find the 150s to be more than capable of impressive bass output for music. Obviously, the last octave or so of extension is absent, but I rarely listen to music in my office where that would matter.

Your room and your ears aren't mine, but if you have no aversion to adding another box to your setup, I'd probably opt for the 120 IIs + sub. If you'd rather keep things lean and tidy, you might very well find the 150s to offer sufficient bass output by themselves.

 

[dickiefunk]

As I undserstood it the Neumann app is only a pre-configuration of the setup, depending on distances and your room. The measurements are a real setup/configuration, I would not see a use for the app?
But you can save your measurements now as presets, so you can overwrite the measurements with the app and restore it afterwards.

Am I correct in thinking the Neumann Control app allows you to mute or solo the sub?

 

[IamJF]

Am I correct in thinking the Neumann Control app allows you to mute or solo the sub?

Puh - not sure.
But to be honest - don't do that. In a good woofer integration you should not switch of the woofer! It simply doesn't make sense. If you want to check small speaker sound put an ugly peaking 2nd or 4th order highpass between 60 and 100Hz, depending on the size you want to simulate. I can do that with my interface in the output channel, easy to implement and to switch.

If you feel the need to turn of the subwoofer - then your setup is not on point. Woofer to loud (99% of setups done by ear), phase not perfect or acoustical corner frequencies not fitting. Slopes not fitting. There's a lot of stuff can go wrong here.

 

[DJBonoBobo]

Am I correct in thinking the Neumann Control app allows you to mute or solo the sub?

Yes, the control app has some functionality the MA1 software has not. You can enter delay and peq values, mute and solo channels and so on. Unfortunately they are not compatible with each other. Each will overwrite the setting of the others. So, no, you cannot calibrate with MA1 and use the Control app afterwards.
I liked the app, i even bought an ipad for it, and i am sad they did not update the app since 2019.

 

[al2002]

Does the Neumann Control App have volume and balance control functions?

 

[DJBonoBobo]

Does the Neumann Control App have volume and balance control functions?

‎Neumann.Control

‎Neumann.Control enables you to Setup, Align and Operate your Neumann DSP system. It contains a demo mode so you can explore the app even if you do not own Neumann DSP monitors yet. Via standard IP networking, Neumann.Control gives full access to all the functions of the KH 80 DSP Studio...

apps.apple.com

Volume for all and per speaker indvidually, i think.
But, to be clear, it does not work with the KH 120 II or 150.

 

[teashea]

Which one? I think i never read a single bad professional review about a Neumann speaker. (Same for Genelec).

No. You don't need to test yourself to know good measurements are not a "religion". You need to test it yourself only to see if you are liking it and how it works in your environment.

right ----- measurement = reality.

 

[al2002]

‎Neumann.Control

‎Neumann.Control enables you to Setup, Align and Operate your Neumann DSP system. It contains a demo mode so you can explore the app even if you do not own Neumann DSP monitors yet. Via standard IP networking, Neumann.Control gives full access to all the functions of the KH 80 DSP Studio...

apps.apple.com

Volume for all and per speaker indvidually, i think.
But, to be clear, it does not work with the KH 120 II or 150.

That's odd. Why would Neumann leave out these functions for the 120 II or 150? Perhaps an updated app is in the works?

 

[IamJF]

Neumann needs a nice remote control for these digital speakers!
I'm using the control from my RME interface which is good for my use. But a direct control of the (Atmos) speakers with mutes to check signals would be really helpful.

The control app should be working with the 120ii and 150? But you can't use the measurement function then. They are slow with software, the measurement system also needed a few updates to be really useful (like saving measurements ... they didn't thought about that ... ?)

 

[DJBonoBobo]

That's odd. Why would Neumann leave out these functions for the 120 II or 150? Perhaps an updated app is in the works?

I don't know, but it feels like Neumann abandoned the iPad-app. Looks to me like a one-time-job or short term contract with some software company that has expired by the end of 2019...

 

[DJBonoBobo]

The control app should be working with the 120ii and 150? But you can't use the measurement function then. They are slow with software, the measurement system also needed a few updates to be really useful (like saving measurements ... they didn't thought about that ... ?)

Neumann.Control iPad-app: last update Nov 2019, does not work with 120 II or 150, no measurement functionality, but manual control options. Supports only 1 KH750, but multichannel KH80 setups.

Neumann MA1-software for Windows and Mac: last update Jan 2023, supports KH150 but seemingly not yet 120 II, has measurement and automatic alignment functionality, but not the manual control options. Supports 2 KH750, but only stereo setups. In active developement - looks like in-house this time. Hopefully updated soon with KH 120 II support.

 

[Pearljam5000]

What's the verdict on KH120 II + a sub vs KH150 in a small room ?

 

[danbei]

The control app should be working with the 120ii and 150? But you can't use the measurement function then. They are slow with software, the measurement system also needed a few updates to be really useful (like saving measurements ... they didn't thought about that ... ?)

The measurements are saved with MA1. For instance one can load the setup and apply a new target curve without doing the measurement process again.

 

[HQY]

i'm courious about the difference between pair of 120IIs+2x750 and a pair of 150s+2x750 in a room of 23 square meters. listening distance is around 2.1 to 2.3 meters. appreciate advices.

 

[DJBonoBobo]

i'm courious about the difference between pair of 120IIs+2x750 and a pair of 150s+2x750 in a room of 23 square meters. listening distance is around 2.1 to 2.3 meters. appreciate advices.

Here was a comparison (just before the thread got polluted with endless pages of useless bullshit discussions):

Neumann KH120 II

Genelec should wake up and and update their 8000 series (which is16 years old now)Becaue Neumann is is starting to bypass them I guess a separate thread would be fine to discuss the future of Genelec product portfolio or whishes to Genelec (e.g. make it sense to let the 8000 and G series live...

www.audiosciencereview.com

You can see that the 150 can play about 5 db louder in the upper bass area (above the sub crossover frequency) than the 120II. Also i think it has a bit narrower directivity which probably makes it better for bigger distances than the 120II.
Personally the difference between 100 and 105 db would be of no relevance for me, because i almost never listen to more than around 80db, but you have have to decide for yourself if you want some more headroom there or not. If the other small differences sound different depends on your room and is hard to predict, i think. I don't know, but i would expect them to be subtle.
I think both can work, maybe even just the same in most situations, but if i were you i'd probably prefer the 150, just for the peace of mind - more for psychological reasons.
I don't think you can do much wrong with either choice. I think i would start with only one or even without a sub, though, and see if you really need (two of) them.