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Neumann KH120 II

DJBonoBobo

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one reviewer says that Neumann sucks
Which one? I think i never read a single bad professional review about a Neumann speaker. (Same for Genelec).
I will need to test it by myself to know if it’s true or another audio religion.
No. You don't need to test yourself to know good measurements are not a "religion". You need to test it yourself only to see if you are liking it and how it works in your environment.
 

Trell

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So you compare Neumanns 3% THD clean level range value with CEA 2010 peak "shortbeforedamage" value? On purpose or are you not aware of the difference?
The CEA2010 RMS value of the 1723 is 108dB in 2m. So that's 114dB/1m. But that's short before destruction, THD probably close to 100%.

Have a look into real THD measurements of subwoofers, not advertisments from manufacturers.

And no - subwoofer or bigger mains don't fullfill the same purpose ... :facepalm:

Audioholics have a review of the Arendal 1S subwoofer, along with measurements:

>>>Our measurements here are pretty close to Arendal’s own published measurements, although there are a few deviations, such as significantly more output at 63Hz from the 1S than what Arendal managed. [bold added] This is a strong set of measurements, and both subs have lots of headroom, as we heard in our own listening.<<<


1682936266174.png

>>>The above CEA-2010 measurements are short-term bursts that show the subwoofer’s clean peak SPL before heavy distortion sets in. Our measurements have been referenced to 2-meter RMS, which is 9dB down from the standard requirement for the measurements to be shown at 1-meter peak. However most publicly available CEA-2010 measurements are shown at 2-meter RMS, so we followed that convention.<<<

1682936695502.png


>>>The above graphs show the corresponding total harmonic distortion to the long-term output graphs. Essentially, they depict how linear the subwoofer remains for the corresponding drive level seen in the long-term sweeps. The quantity being measured is how much of the subwoofer’s output is distortion, shown here as a percentage. At nominal drive levels, the 1S and 1V exhibit very low distortion, but at very high drive levels, the drivers can exhibit some stress at lower frequencies.<<<
 
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goat76

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Can we expect a new version of the KH310A in the near future, with similar upgrades as the KH120 II like better SPL capacity, even lower extension, and a new tweeter?

The thing that seems to be the biggest complaint with the KH310A is the high-frequency range, and that they are somewhat limited when it comes to the sound pressure capacity.
 

unpluggged

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Can we expect a new version of the KH310A in the near future
Not a new version, but a similar new model with DSP.

better SPL capacity, even lower extension
Probably. The KH 310 occupies a special place in the lineup being a compact three-way sealed neafield monitor, so we have to see if Neumann has something new along these lines.

a new tweeter?
In which area the current one is inadequate?
 

goat76

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In which area the current one is inadequate?

I don't know, I’ve never listened to any Neumann monitor myself. But when reading about them it seems like the high-frequency area is the weakest point of Neumann monitors.
 

Grotti

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I don't know, I’ve never listened to any Neumann monitor myself. But when reading about them it seems like the high-frequency area is the weakest point of Neumann monitors.
It is not. Just order a pair and listen, if the measurements available here are not convincing to you.
 

Pearljam5000

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Can we expect a new version of the KH310A in the near future, with similar upgrades as the KH120 II like better SPL capacity, even lower extension, and a new tweeter?

The thing that seems to be the biggest complaint with the KH310A is the high-frequency range, and that they are somewhat limited when it comes to the sound pressure capacity.
They're using the same old tweeter for over 10 years
I doubt they'll ever replace it
 

unpluggged

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But when reading about them it seems like the high-frequency area is the weakest point of Neumann monitors.
Reading from whom? From armchair specialists? These monitors have been SOTA professional tools for decades, and measurements show us that their current tweeter is not a limiting factor at all. Look at a 96 dB THD graph of any of the Neumann monitors, for instance, not to mention the FR.

And I'm listening to them at the moment, in fact. After having been used to HEDD's AMT, I do not find them lacking in any area. The rest is up to your room and DSP corrections.
 

mj30250

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I'm a stickler for high-frequency reproduction. While the majority of instruments don't create fundamental notes in the range of most tweeters, I do think that accurate treble harmonics separates good speakers from exceptional ones that are capable of placing what sounds like live instruments into the room. In my experience, most speakers fail at this, as the simple and easy path to what might initially sound like detailed and "live" sounding highs are recessed mids, tilted up treble, or a combination of both. This strategy wears out its welcome quickly. It takes a high degree of experience, engineering, crossover design, driver selection, etc, to do this right. I've owned very good AMT speakers, Revel Be series speakers, Ascend RAAL ribbon speakers (as well as their LX model which uses a fantastic SEAS dome tweeter), and my desire for good treble steered me towards all of them.

I blindly purchased KH 150s having never heard a Neumann speaker before, not knowing what exactly to expect of their high-frequency abilities. Clearly they measure ruler flat with impressively low distortion, but would they provide that otherwise difficult-to-define sense of air and "liveness" that I prefer? For the most part, yes, they do. I'd gladly put them up against the Revels and the Ascend LXs in this area, and it would not surprise me if in blind testing, the 150s were actually preferred. To me, they only take a back seat to the Ascend ELX ribbon towers. That's not at all a knock on the Neumanns as the ELXs are freakishly good, particularly for their size and price point. The Ascends are also quite wide in dispersion, so in the right rooms and at the right listening distances, they can provide a sense of spaciousness that would be very difficult for a narrower-dispersion speaker to match. The Neumanns are intentionally designed for narrower, controlled dispersion. Changing out the tweeter to a completely new model because a few people on the internet say they're old isn't going to change that aspect of Neumann's design. And without going to a completely different design, I'm at a loss as to what could be appreciably improved.
 

AgentWet

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I'm not 'telling' you anything - and said no such thing...

this is what I did say:

I did not mention any other brands - did not compare speaker sizes, mid-fields and near-fields - did not say any two speakers would sound the same - did not refer to any measurements...

Please don't put words in my mouth - it is impolite...

to further clarify my simple statement ->> ANY studio monitors (manufactured by ANY company) are intended for a specific purpose - and for a number of very good reasons which are very well known - may generally be a poor choice for entertainment music listening in a home... personally I would never put a studio monitor system in my own home - but some people do...

you previously said in your comment #406, "now I want to try PRO gear instead of HighEnd"... well, ok... good luck with that - if it's what you 'want' to do...

but pro-audio monitoring/monitors are a different world from "music listening in a home" - especially when integrating sub-woofers...

most studio monitor mfgs have certainly made it easier (since I first had to do it years ago, when there was no 'same-brand-subs' avaiable - I had no alternative) - and that integration today is very well implemented, but comes at a price which may seem cost prohibitive to you...

you have expressed your sensitivity to those costs... to be blunt, pro-audio stuff ain't for 'the cheap seats'...
I don’t think that PRO studio monitors are expensive if you compare them with so called high end. For example best Focal active 3-way Trio 11 for about $8.000 a pair vs some Focal Utopia for about $40.000 for passive. What is cheaper? At time I have at home some towers for about $16.000 +/-
I don’t have a problem to pay some money for good sound. I just don’t want to spend lot for useless or overpriced gear.
Why are studio monitors bad for home listening if we don’t mind WAF and design generally? They measure great, they are cheaper and powered so no stress with amplifying and cabling.
 

thecheapseats

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I don't know, I’ve never listened to any Neumann monitor myself. But when reading about them it seems like the high-frequency area is the weakest point of Neumann monitors.
weakest point? - according to whom?... other non-owners?... you 'read' about it?...but never used them?...

that's pure nonsense... I've used their stuff (neumann mics) to make a living over the last fifty+ years - forty-two of them using k+h/neumann monitors...

I keep a pair of kh310s around as control room spares (if 420s have issues) and regularly use them for studio room playback... I know exactly what they do and what they sound like...
 

thecheapseats

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I don’t think that PRO studio monitors are expensive if you compare them with so called high end. For example best Focal active 3-way Trio 11 for about $8.000 a pair vs some Focal Utopia for about $40.000 for passive. What is cheaper? At time I have at home some towers for about $16.000 +/-
I don’t have a problem to pay some money for good sound. I just don’t want to spend lot for useless or overpriced gear.
Why are studio monitors bad for home listening if we don’t mind WAF and design generally? They measure great, they are cheaper and powered so no stress with amplifying and cabling.
yet you were quick to say, "I'm not sure if I want to pay this money for KH750"... you're a walking, talking contradiction...

and you're wasting my time... I'm done with you...
 

AgentWet

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yet you were quick to say, "I'm not sure if I want to pay this money for KH750"... you're a walking, talking contradiction...

and you're wasting my time... I'm done with you...
Why you are so upset? I just thinking if KH750 is better value than some other SUB. I’m not telling that I’m searching some cheap product. That’s all. There is so many useless misunderstandings and arguing. Why?
 

lowkeyoperations

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yet you were quick to say, "I'm not sure if I want to pay this money for KH750"... you're a walking, talking contradiction...

and you're wasting my time... I'm done with you...
I suppose you could probably save time by not responding in that case…
 

JustCoolin‘

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I agree entirely. As I have repeatedly said, Neumann has designed these as studio monitors - not home or pleasure speakers.
The Neumann engineers disagree with you, actually. They are quite explicitly also for domestic use. As you said in the past several times, the Neumann engineers certainly know best. ;-)
 

thecheapseats

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The Neumann engineers disagree with you, actually. They are quite explicitly also for domestic use. As you said in the past several times, the Neumann engineers certainly know best. ;-)
I was quite surprised and happy to see neumann making smaller monitors for entry level sales...

home use? - well, whatever that is - the definition might be accurately used as the proliferation of home studio recording has exploded in the last few decades... and to offer entry level monitors for that market was a wise business decision - especially models which can be used to oversome less than optimal listening spaces found in a typical 'home'...
 
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Pearljam5000

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I'm a stickler for high-frequency reproduction. While the majority of instruments don't create fundamental notes in the range of most tweeters, I do think that accurate treble harmonics separates good speakers from exceptional ones that are capable of placing what sounds like live instruments into the room. In my experience, most speakers fail at this, as the simple and easy path to what might initially sound like detailed and "live" sounding highs are recessed mids, tilted up treble, or a combination of both. This strategy wears out its welcome quickly. It takes a high degree of experience, engineering, crossover design, driver selection, etc, to do this right. I've owned very good AMT speakers, Revel Be series speakers, Ascend RAAL ribbon speakers (as well as their LX model which uses a fantastic SEAS dome tweeter), and my desire for good treble steered me towards all of them.

I blindly purchased KH 150s having never heard a Neumann speaker before, not knowing what exactly to expect of their high-frequency abilities. Clearly they measure ruler flat with impressively low distortion, but would they provide that otherwise difficult-to-define sense of air and "liveness" that I prefer? For the most part, yes, they do. I'd gladly put them up against the Revels and the Ascend LXs in this area, and it would not surprise me if in blind testing, the 150s were actually preferred. To me, they only take a back seat to the Ascend ELX ribbon towers. That's not at all a knock on the Neumanns as the ELXs are freakishly good, particularly for their size and price point. The Ascends are also quite wide in dispersion, so in the right rooms and at the right listening distances, they can provide a sense of spaciousness that would be very difficult for a narrower-dispersion speaker to match. The Neumanns are intentionally designed for narrower, controlled dispersion. Changing out the tweeter to a completely new model because a few people on the internet say they're old isn't going to change that aspect of Neumann's design. And without going to a completely different design, I'm at a loss as to what could be appreciably improved.
I'm betting you'll like the Genelec and Focal highs even more
 

JustCoolin‘

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I was quite surprised and happy to see neumann making smaller monitors for entry level sales...

home use? - well, whatever that is - the definition might be accurately used as the proliferation of home studio recording has exploded in the last few decades...
No, they explicitly differentiate between “home studio” and “Wohnbereich” (translated as “domestic use”), they also mention the living room in their marketing materials.

And why not. Great speakers are great speakers.
 
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