• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Neumann KH120 II

Pearljam5000

Master Contributor
Joined
Oct 12, 2020
Messages
5,127
Likes
5,356
That is not even a remote answer to the question.

And I have absolutely no idea the answer to yours (see, that's rather easy to admit), but I'd be willing to bet that one of two scenarios occured:

They identified an area (or areas) in need of improvement.

Or

Marketing inisited that new tweeters sell more speakers.

Yes Genelec is known for developing new drivers for "marketing " makes sense ..*rolls eyes *
Like I said nothing is perfect
Unless you claim their tweeter is perfect .
Anyways after more than 10 years I would expect *some changes to *
That's it.
 

IamJF

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 27, 2023
Messages
487
Likes
587
Location
Austria
Tweeters - it's only a very little part of the spectrum and not THAT relevant for listening to music. But I used quite some time and recources for this in the last years cause I needed very special specs for a customer speaker.
The biggest differences I always find in the top octave. As far as I know do KH150 and KH120ii share the same tweeter but not sure if it's the same as KH310 and KH120. I thought they did some changes for the KH310 ... but not sure about that, long ago.
I hated the old Genelec/Seas tweeters. But that was also part of the voicing - very pronounced to hear all the details easy, but after 10min it hurts. The newer smaller ones are fine, also the tweeter in the "Ones" I heard. Didn't heard their actual 8"/1" model - the old one was a nogo monitor for me.

I like the sound of ring radiators - but they beam at high frequencies. I don't like fabric tweeters cause they are not neutral. They always add something. I like the sound of AMT - but their radiation behaviour is very uneven and they are big, so they sort themselfs out for many projects. I really disliked the old metal membrane tweeters with their resonance in the 17-21kHz area. They always sounded "to much" for my ears, every detail was pushed in your face. Newer ones (probably starting with Visatons "ceramic" tweeter) are better in this regards.
After all I got to Beryllium cause I needed the extended frequency range for my project. And these are my goto tweeters now and the best I know at the moment from overall quality. Scanspeak ones are great already and have a low resonance frequency but I prefer the Bliesma cause of higher sensitivity, very small front plate and insanely high membrane resonance.

So do the KH120ii sound as natural in the top octave as my reference speakers with Bliesma T25B? No. But they are not nasty and over all balance is great. And at that pricepoint they are really good.

And for fun a comparison of 2 top notch Beryllium tweeters at very high frequencies ;-) (1/4" freefield ref mic, anechoic chamber in 50cm)
Comparison BestB vs ScanSpeak.PNG
 

IamJF

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 27, 2023
Messages
487
Likes
587
Location
Austria
@AgentWet Did you had a look at the measurements of your favourite woofer? Thanks Trell for the link and the data!
For the level you refer the thd is between 10-30%. That's pretty normal btw, not that bad actually.
The text of the test has a mistake - doubling the distance is 6dB down, not 9dB.

Now look at this graph:
index.php

THD at 90dBSpl ... is >10% for a wide range! And goes up like crazy when you rise the level.
But that's simply how a closed sub measures - these are not bad subwoofers by any means. These "bicycle tire suspension" subs often measure way worse with high THD even at low levels and high frequencies.
The reflex subwoofer has significant less THD - cause the tube adds up to 10dB SPL with it's resonance. But you know which one sounds better ...

So the Neumann sub is pretty where it belongs to for a very good 10" with closed volume. The Arendal goes louder as it should do with it's bigger membrane and when you compare THD it's about the amount you expect from the bigger membrane. Neumann don't specifies CEA 2010 measurements - cause they are useless for clean monitoring. And Aarendal doesn't secifies 3% THD sound level - cause it gives a pretty low value, even for a good sub. And HiFi people don't know anyways what these measurements are.
 

mj30250

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 5, 2021
Messages
427
Likes
862
Yes Genelec is known for developing new drivers for "marketing " makes sense ..*rolls eyes *
Like I said nothing is perfect
Unless you claim their tweeter is perfect .
Anyways after more than 10 years I would expect *some changes to *
That's it.
I have not and do not claim that they are perfect.

But, tweeters are a component of an overall system. They must integrate with and perform well relative to the design goals and parameters of a given system. If Neumann were to simply change out the tweeter for something that differed in performance characteristics (otherwise, why change it at all, apart from marketing?), other components of the speaker system would also need to be adjusted - the crossover at minimum. So, again, what specifically about the tweeter in modern Neumann speakers should be changed that could potentially improve their overall speaker systems?

To be clear, I'm not claiming that there are no such things, but so far nothing has been defined beyond "they're old" and "other companies have changed tweeters". These alone are not valid reasons to make adjustments.
 

Pearljam5000

Master Contributor
Joined
Oct 12, 2020
Messages
5,127
Likes
5,356
I have not and do not claim that they are perfect.

But, tweeters are a component of an overall system. They must integrate with and perform well relative to the design goals and parameters of a given system. If Neumann were to simply change out the tweeter for something that differed in performance characteristics (otherwise, why change it at all, apart from marketing?), other components of the speaker system would also need to be adjusted - the crossover at minimum. So, again, what specifically about the tweeter in modern Neumann speakers should be changed that could potentially improve their overall speaker systems?

To be clear, I'm not claiming that there are no such things, but so far nothing has been defined beyond "they're old" and "other companies have changed tweeters". These alone are not valid reasons to make adjustments.
Again I'm not saying it has to be changed
I'm saying there's a new generation now and the old tweeter has been used for over 10 years now and other companies in this time frame has at least improved the previous generation tweeter if not completely replaced it
So it only makes sense it will also happen with Neumann .
 

AgentWet

Member
Joined
Apr 25, 2023
Messages
66
Likes
40
Location
Czech Republic
@AgentWet Did you had a look at the measurements of your favourite woofer? Thanks Trell for the link and the data!
For the level you refer the thd is between 10-30%. That's pretty normal btw, not that bad actually.
The text of the test has a mistake - doubling the distance is 6dB down, not 9dB.

Now look at this graph:
index.php

THD at 90dBSpl ... is >10% for a wide range! And goes up like crazy when you rise the level.
But that's simply how a closed sub measures - these are not bad subwoofers by any means. These "bicycle tire suspension" subs often measure way worse with high THD even at low levels and high frequencies.
The reflex subwoofer has significant less THD - cause the tube adds up to 10dB SPL with it's resonance. But you know which one sounds better ...

So the Neumann sub is pretty where it belongs to for a very good 10" with closed volume. The Arendal goes louder as it should do with it's bigger membrane and when you compare THD it's about the amount you expect from the bigger membrane. Neumann don't specifies CEA 2010 measurements - cause they are useless for clean monitoring. And Aarendal doesn't secifies 3% THD sound level - cause it gives a pretty low value, even for a good sub. And HiFi people don't know anyways what these measurements are.
Not all HiFi people are so stupid, but sometimes just missing relevant data. I wasn't dealing about any SUB never before. Just red 1000 times that closed are better for transient response and for music. If it was one big lie, OK. I can change my mind and start thinking about ported one. I just wanted lowest possible distortion and seamless joint with speakers. I'm not crazy fan of one solution and hater of another. Just thinking.
 

mj30250

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 5, 2021
Messages
427
Likes
862
Again I'm not saying it has to be changed
I'm saying there's a new generation now and the old tweeter has been used for over 10 years now and other companies in this time frame has at least improved the previous generation tweeter if not completely replaced it
So it only makes sense it will also happen with Neumann .
Again, it only makes sense if....it makes sense.

My main speakers (in their original version) were designed something like 12 years ago. For over a decade, the model remained the same, up until last year, when it underwent a significant redesign using a Klippel NFS. The bass woofers, midrange driver, and crossovers were completely changed and upgraded. Guess what stayed exactly the same? The tweeter. Had it made any sense to update it, rest assured the designer would have happily done so. He found there to be no need, and based on the objective and subjective results of the redesign, I find no compelling reason to argue with his findings.
 
Last edited:

ernestcarl

Major Contributor
Joined
Sep 4, 2019
Messages
3,106
Likes
2,313
Location
Canada
Just red 1000 times that closed are better for transient response and for music. If it was one big lie, OK. I can change my mind and start thinking about ported one.

Generally, sealed designs have a lower GD in the bass. Because of this, it's also likely easier to apply FIR excess phase and GD correction -- whereby there should be less pre-ringing/echo artifacting (if it's really done well/correctly) partly/maybe largely due to absence of the port resonance.

Magnitude & Phase (FDW 15 cycles)
1682974216475.png 1682974229782.png 1682974235181.png 1682974240417.png

Group Delay (FDW 15 cycles)
1682974298001.png 1682974301578.png 1682974304648.png 1682974307195.png

Wavelet Spectrogram (1/3 smoothing, 40 dB scale)
1682974369202.png 1682974375121.png 1682974381477.png 1682974386399.png

The more acute the correction (341 ms FIR above), the more likely you will get audible artifacts the further away you are from the MLP -- where the correction was performed.
 
Last edited:

IamJF

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 27, 2023
Messages
487
Likes
587
Location
Austria
Not all HiFi people are so stupid, but sometimes just missing relevant data. I wasn't dealing about any SUB never before. Just red 1000 times that closed are better for transient response and for music. If it was one big lie, OK. I can change my mind and start thinking about ported one. I just wanted lowest possible distortion and seamless joint with speakers. I'm not crazy fan of one solution and hater of another. Just thinking.

Closed IS better, esp. for music. Reflex measures less THD. Decide - sound or one measurement parameter ;-)

For music you don't need full power at 20-30Hz. Instruments which have these low frequencies have reduced output there. That's one of the causes we don't hear THD in this frequency area well - cause the natural behaviour of the instruments is often >100% "THD".
(The table with detectable THD was tested with sine signals. Ear is way more sensitive this way but still is a good scale to have a "worst case" scenario, you are more then save when your speaker is able to do that)

You can EQ a closed sub in the room as you like! It just looses max level if you push it +15dB at 20Hz - you just need more subwoofers then. You can't EQ a ported sub lower as the tuning frequency is - there is very little output and you will destroy the chassis. The 12dB/octave slope of the closed cabinet fits to room gain (if your room is smallish) - you can achive linear FR to very low frequencies when everything fits.

And group delay. And sensitivity to voicecoil heating. "Nullpunktverschiebung" (sorry, don't remember the englisch term - its past midnight here ;-)). No port noises. No port resonances. Smaller.

So for music it's 100% closed subs for me. For home cinema you can also use a 20-25Hz tuned sub for more output - but I simply use more closed subs ;-) (that's the reason for 6x 10" for my home cinema. For music 2 would be perfectly fine)
There is nothing cooler as an explosion which ends as fast as it happens. These effects are not "booooommmm" - they should be "*BAM*" :cool:. When you have experienced that once you don't get back to ported subwoofers.
 

AgentWet

Member
Joined
Apr 25, 2023
Messages
66
Likes
40
Location
Czech Republic
Closed IS better, esp. for music. Reflex measures less THD. Decide - sound or one measurement parameter ;-)

For music you don't need full power at 20-30Hz. Instruments which have these low frequencies have reduced output there. That's one of the causes we don't hear THD in this frequency area well - cause the natural behaviour of the instruments is often >100% "THD".
(The table with detectable THD was tested with sine signals. Ear is way more sensitive this way but still is a good scale to have a "worst case" scenario, you are more then save when your speaker is able to do that)

You can EQ a closed sub in the room as you like! It just looses max level if you push it +15dB at 20Hz - you just need more subwoofers then. You can't EQ a ported sub lower as the tuning frequency is - there is very little output and you will destroy the chassis. The 12dB/octave slope of the closed cabinet fits to room gain (if your room is smallish) - you can achive linear FR to very low frequencies when everything fits.

And group delay. And sensitivity to voicecoil heating. "Nullpunktverschiebung" (sorry, don't remember the englisch term - its past midnight here ;-)). No port noises. No port resonances. Smaller.

So for music it's 100% closed subs for me. For home cinema you can also use a 20-25Hz tuned sub for more output - but I simply use more closed subs ;-) (that's the reason for 6x 10" for my home cinema. For music 2 would be perfectly fine)
There is nothing cooler as an explosion which ends as fast as it happens. These effects are not "booooommmm" - they should be "*BAM*" :cool:. When you have experienced that once you don't get back to ported subwoofers.
Thanks. I think that such as all things, also SUB theme need some time and experiences. I'm not interested in modern action movies too much, so I don't need brute power at 16-20Hz. If I should spend some money on SUB it will be for music mostly. There you need fast transient and low GD. And my room is very small. Only 42m². And if some explosion in movie will be weaker, that is more benefit than loss for me. I need to study harmonic distortion theme and correlation between frequency and hearable % more.
But I'm still thinking that KH150 could be enough for me. My basic room mode is 36Hz and I'm not listening at very high levels anymore. And from Amirs measurements it looks fantastic up to 95db. And 36Hz is low enough for most of the music and instruments. I red some theory about lowest octaves in small rooms, which says that there is no chance to reproduce lower frequency than the one which's half of the wavelength = length of the room correctly. Does it make sense?
 

IamJF

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 27, 2023
Messages
487
Likes
587
Location
Austria
Thanks. I think that such as all things, also SUB theme need some time and experiences. I'm not interested in modern action movies too much, so I don't need brute power at 16-20Hz. If I should spend some money on SUB it will be for music mostly. There you need fast transient and low GD. And my room is very small. Only 42m². And if some explosion in movie will be weaker, that is more benefit than loss for me. I need to study harmonic distortion theme and correlation between frequency and hearable % more.
But I'm still thinking that KH150 could be enough for me. My basic room mode is 36Hz and I'm not listening at very high levels anymore. And from Amirs measurements it looks fantastic up to 95db. And 36Hz is low enough for most of the music and instruments. I red some theory about lowest octaves in small rooms, which says that there is no chance to reproduce lower frequency than the one which's half of the wavelength = length of the room correctly. Does it make sense?

This theory is still floating around but is complete nonsense. Why should it be? I never heard a physical argument for it.
When it would be true you could not hear low frequencies in a car. But the opposite is true - a (stiff enough) car helps low frequecies.
A room significant smaller as the wavelenght acts as a pressure chamber. In a room significant bigger as the wavelength you have wave propagation. And in between there is a transition zone - as so often in acoustics.
A pressure chamber raises SPL level with lower frequencies by 12dB/octave. A speaker in closed box falls with 12dB/oct. I build pressure chambers for physical tests on microphones and pressure sensors and these are linear down to DC (so you can build up static pressure when you build it right).
Room gain in rooms start pretty late, 15-30Hz. So in your room it's likely you don't even recognise it.

But ALWAYS it's no problem to produce sound pressure level at low frequencies regardless of the size of the room. And our ear is a PRESSURE receiver - so it's purely the sound pressure we need for hearing.


Very low frequencies - my main system goes down to 20Hz linear. Compared to the KH120ii - there is not a lot of missing for most songs. But WHEN there is some useful information down there it's pretty cool :cool: (often it's just rumble or some mistake during recording)
So for a reference system (like mine for mastering and mixing) there is definitely a benefit of very low frequency extension. But you can nicely listen to music without it.
 

muslhead

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
May 28, 2020
Messages
1,560
Likes
1,718
Again I'm not saying it has to be changed
I'm saying there's a new generation now and the old tweeter has been used for over 10 years now and other companies in this time frame has at least improved the previous generation tweeter if not completely replaced it
So it only makes sense it will also happen with Neumann .
The good news is you will eventually be right.
We may not be alive to experience but you will be right.
And that is what this forum is for many. Being right (or at least arguing until the other person gives up)
 

Pearljam5000

Master Contributor
Joined
Oct 12, 2020
Messages
5,127
Likes
5,356
The good news is you will eventually be right.
We may not be alive to experience but you will be right.
And that is what this forum is for many. Being right (or at least arguing until the other person gives up)
The good news is you will eventually be right.
We may not be alive to experience but you will be right.
And that is what this forum is for many. Being right (or at least arguing until the other person gives up)
No need to wait , I'm already right
 

bodhi

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Nov 11, 2022
Messages
973
Likes
1,371
Compared to the KH120ii - there is not a lot of missing for most songs.

That's up for a debate. I feel that there is something there below 40Hz and even 30Hz in a lot of songs that are not even especially bass heavy. Nothing dramatic, but in a way that in a blind test everybody would get it ten out of ten.

I can see how this difference isn't a concern for many, but the magnitude of difference is way, way greater compared to many high end tweaks discussed. And compared to differences between similar sized speakers from Neumann and Genelec. And vinyl vs digital. Tubes vs solid state.

This is why I have never understood how people who are adamant of getting every minor detail perfect to achieve ultimate fidelity can give up on lower frequencies without much thought.
 

AgentWet

Member
Joined
Apr 25, 2023
Messages
66
Likes
40
Location
Czech Republic
This theory is still floating around but is complete nonsense. Why should it be? I never heard a physical argument for it.
When it would be true you could not hear low frequencies in a car. But the opposite is true - a (stiff enough) car helps low frequecies.
A room significant smaller as the wavelenght acts as a pressure chamber. In a room significant bigger as the wavelength you have wave propagation. And in between there is a transition zone - as so often in acoustics.
A pressure chamber raises SPL level with lower frequencies by 12dB/octave. A speaker in closed box falls with 12dB/oct. I build pressure chambers for physical tests on microphones and pressure sensors and these are linear down to DC (so you can build up static pressure when you build it right).
Room gain in rooms start pretty late, 15-30Hz. So in your room it's likely you don't even recognise it.

But ALWAYS it's no problem to produce sound pressure level at low frequencies regardless of the size of the room. And our ear is a PRESSURE receiver - so it's purely the sound pressure we need for hearing.


Very low frequencies - my main system goes down to 20Hz linear. Compared to the KH120ii - there is not a lot of missing for most songs. But WHEN there is some useful information down there it's pretty cool :cool: (often it's just rumble or some mistake during recording)
So for a reference system (like mine for mastering and mixing) there is definitely a benefit of very low frequency extension. But you can nicely listen to music without it.
Thanks. Funny is, that this theory is spread here even from a speaker manufacturer. He is saying that at frequencies where the half length of the wave is longer than the longest wall in the room the pressure is unstable and try to leak from every small hole. So that open doors is enough to loose this pressure, and that there is problem to solve it.
I also don't think that you can't hear 20Hz in small room, but maybe there is problem to keep the same level or slope at all frequencies with doors, windows,... open or close.
Acoustics is not an easy discipline...
I think, that I don't need to hear 20Hz in music. I think, that 32Hz is enough for 99% of it (except organs, lowest tone of grand piano and modern EM) So maybe KH150 could be fine, with MA1 in my small 42m² room with some room gain at 36Hz. I think, that KH120II will need a SUB. There is almost a half octave difference at 90db between KH150 and 120II. So I'm still scratching my head if 120II with SUB or 150 without :)

What is your opinion on multitone distortion? This is only measurement which I'm missing here on ASR. I think, that it could show if there is need for SUB or 3-Way monitors, because of much lower MultiToneDistortion or IMD at 3-Way systems or not. Maybe in some cases as KH150 it can be better, than some 3-ways or maybe it is another nonsense and 3-Way or 2-Way + SUB will always have much lower IMD, than even the best 2-Way monitor. Hm? This is another point for me, to think about KH120II + SUB.
 

audafreak

Active Member
Joined
Jan 1, 2021
Messages
160
Likes
98
Thanks. Funny is, that this theory is spread here even from a speaker manufacturer. He is saying that at frequencies where the half length of the wave is longer than the longest wall in the room the pressure is unstable and try to leak from every small hole. So that open doors is enough to loose this pressure, and that there is problem to solve it.
I also don't think that you can't hear 20Hz in small room, but maybe there is problem to keep the same level or slope at all frequencies with doors, windows,... open or close.
Acoustics is not an easy discipline...
My own experience is that in my room 3.4x5.6m (half wave for 30Hz) I don't hear under 29Hz but my furniture and microphone hear it. Maybe problem with my ears, who knows...
 

AgentWet

Member
Joined
Apr 25, 2023
Messages
66
Likes
40
Location
Czech Republic
My own experience is that in my room 3.4x5.6m (half wave for 30Hz) I don't hear under 29Hz but my furniture and microphone hear it. Maybe problem with my ears, who knows...
Interesting. I’m not a big fan of resonating furniture. :) I think that 32Hz is more than enough.
 

thecheapseats

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Feb 22, 2023
Messages
727
Likes
776
Location
Los Angeles refugee
...Very low frequencies - my main system goes down to 20Hz linear. Compared to the KH120ii - there is not a lot of missing for most songs. But WHEN there is some useful information down there it's pretty cool... ...(often it's just rumble or some mistake during recording)
for those low freq errors, sub(s) are especially handy as heck... and one of the main reasons I listen carefully to the sub-info in any outgoing overdub tracks or recordings I work on... you can't fix what you can't hear...
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom