Neumann KH120 II

[HQY]

Here was a comparison (just before the thread got polluted with endless pages of useless bullshit discussions):

Neumann KH120 II

Genelec should wake up and and update their 8000 series (which is16 years old now)Becaue Neumann is is starting to bypass them I guess a separate thread would be fine to discuss the future of Genelec product portfolio or whishes to Genelec (e.g. make it sense to let the 8000 and G series live...

www.audiosciencereview.com

You can see that the 150 can play about 5 db louder in the upper bass area (above the sub crossover frequency) than the 120II. Also i think it has a bit narrower directivity which probably makes it better for bigger distances than the 120II.
Personally the difference between 100 and 105 db would be of no relevance for me, because i almost never listen to more than around 80db, but you have have to decide for yourself if you want some more headroom there or not. If the other small differences sound different depends on your room and is hard to predict, i think. I don't know, but i would expect them to be subtle.
I think both can work, maybe even just the same in most situations, but if i were you i'd probably prefer the 150, just for the peace of mind - more for psychological reasons.
I don't think you can do much wrong with either choice. I think i would start with only one or even without a sub, though, and see if you really need (two of) them.

thank you very much for sharing the info and comments. I currently have a kh750 pair with kh80. when i play loud, occationally the 750 could be in red (overrunning). so im considering to add a 750, then 120ii or 150. thanks again. it's helpful.

 

[audafreak]

Neumann MA1-In active developement - looks like in-house this time. Hopefully updated soon with KH 120 II support.

I don't think it is in-house developement.
I think they hire the same people/group of people from time to time for some developement. Otherwise there would not be so long terms between small updates and there would not be so big problem to implement simple functionality like another checkbox or so. I think they said their alignment system is developed by Fraunhofer Institute for Integrated Circuits IIS - developer of MP3 codec - and probably they still use their people but probably not on permanent base, currently developing multichannel alignment, and I think that front end developer also does not have permanent work on this project, maybe 2-3 months/year.
But it is just my opinion from available info combined with my personal experience as a sw developer.

Neuman Control is currently dead project, of course, no reason to use it anymore.

 

[DJBonoBobo]

I don't think it is in-house developement.
I think they hire the same people/group of people from time to time for some developement. Otherwise there would not be so long terms between small updates and there would not be so big problem to implement simple functionality like another checkbox or so. I think they said their alignment system is developed by Fraunhofer Institute for Integrated Circuits IIS - developer of MP3 codec - and probably they still use their people but probably not on permanent base, currently developing multichannel alignment, and I think that front end developer also does not have permanent work on this project, maybe 2-3 months/year.
But it is just my opinion from available info combined with my personal experience as a sw developer.

Neuman Control is currently dead project, of course, no reason to use it anymore.

Maybe, i don't know. Just to be clear, i have no internal knowledge. I was just speculating because i had at least contact with (seemingly) Neumann/Sennheiser staff working with the software. Doesn't really matter anyway, but i wish they continued the iPad app and made similar nice software for other platforms.

 

[audafreak]

but i wish they continued the iPad app and made similar nice software for other platforms.

But the only possible functionality for such Android/Ios application would be SPL set, switch on/off particular monitors and set lights and auto off timeout. Nothing else.
Because everything else is part of alignment and this is stored only on PC/Mac. This is by design so you cannot change it without redesigning also all monitors.

Better sense has to implement this functionality into MA1. I am calling for this already for 2 years and still not fully done. And in fact this functionality is so simple to implement, several lines of code. Average developer would do it in several hours, sub average maybe days.

 

[DJBonoBobo]

But the only possible functionality for such Android/Ios application would be SPL set, switch on/off particular monitors and set lights and auto off timeout. Nothing else.
Because everything else is part of alignment and this is stored only on PC/Mac. This is by design so you cannot change it without redesigning also all monitors.

Better sense has to implement this functionality into MA1. I am calling for this already for 2 years and still not fully done. And in fact this functionality is so simple to implement, several lines of code. Average developer would do it in several hours, sub average maybe days.

Yes, i meant it in the sense of combining MA1/Neumann.control into one multi-platform app.

 

[audafreak]

combining MA1/Neumann.control into one multi-platform app.

That is exactly what is never possible by design.

 

[DJBonoBobo]

That is exactly what is never possible by design.

Ok, i see, but AFAIK every relevant parameter (PEQ, delay, something else?) is stored in the monitors itself. What's not stored are different sets of values, not it would not be possible to switch from one alignment to another. Also it is not possible to perform MA1-measurements from a mobile device, i guess.
But i think it should be possible to perform an automatic alignment with PC/Mac, store the values in the monitors and see and manipulate the values afterwards - similar to the Neumann.Control, but with the values read from the monitors s a starting point. Or use the app without MA1 like before ("manual alignment") or use the PC-software without the MA1 and without iPad in the same way.
So, probably still different apps, but with some degree of compatibility.

 

[Lilith]

Wonder if they ever will add android support. It was planned in 2018. 5 year later still only iOS

 

[Spocko]

For those planning to order the AES67 version of the KH120ii, it won't be arriving to USA retailers until this summer (Sweetwater won't be getting it until June).

 

[Trell]

Wonder if they ever will add android support. It was planned in 2018. 5 year later still only iOS

A big reason for me to buy Genelec instead of Neumann a couple of years ago was at that time the poor software Neumann had, and apparently, that is still a problem.

I just want this to work in a reasonable efficient way without being an alpha (at best) tester.

Their monitors are great, though.

 

[Spocko]

Sorry. I don't have all measurements data, so I can't tell how it is in reality. If you have some better data, please share the links and I will thank you.
And NO, Audioholics measures at 2m, so it was 114db at 2m, and it will be 120 or 121db claimed for 1m! Neumann says 95db sinus a 105 max SPL in 1m.
And this measurement from Neumann page shows even worse and different numbers:

50Hz 3% only 96db! At 30Hz only 82. This is the reason, why I'm thinking about another brand.

And calm down. I'm not telling you, that mains are the same as nearfield + SUB. I'm not working in studio at 0.8 or 1m. Just thinking about PRO gear for home HiFi listening in smaller room. And for distance between 2-2,3 m I can use both. Some bigger two way near/mid monitor as KH150, or smaller nearfield one as this thread KH120II + some good SUB, or some bigger 3-way midfield monitors (NOT MAINS!!!) just for fuller range and better mids with less intermodulation, which is problem with most of the 2-ways.
I will need to listen them anyway, because 100 people = 100 opinions and one reviewer says that Neumann sucks, and another, that Focal sucks, and another that Dynaudio sucks, and so on and so on. Perfect measurements is great thing, but there are other aspects as transient speed, voicing, timbre... And I'm also very afraid of double A/D D/A conversion and if it will be hearable. I'm quite sensitive for bad D/A conversion artefacts and I heard many gear with perfect measurement which I was not able listen longer than few minutes. This is the reason, why I'm still thinking about analog actives as Focal TRIO 6 or 11 with some EQ through my RME ADI2DAC, which sounds nice for me.

I believe the room correction capability of the KH120ii (below 120Hz) will make the most difference due to the prevalence of room modes are in all rooms and especially symmetrical small rooms. You may have a 9dB peak at your MLP and blame the speaker when in fact only room correction DSP (and/or moving the subwoofer) can help. This is where pro speakers from Genelec and Neumann really separate themselves from consumer hifi speakers.

 

[twntyfive2life]

I believe the room correction capability of the KH120ii (below 120Hz) will make the most difference due to the prevalence of room modes are in all rooms and especially symmetrical small rooms. You may have a 9dB peak at your MLP and blame the speaker when in fact only room correction DSP (and/or moving the subwoofer) can help. This is where pro speakers from Genelec and Neumann really separate themselves from consumer hifi speakers.

Unfortunately the MA-1 room correction software doesn't even work with the KH 120 II right now- https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...a-1-automatic-monitor-alignment.17902/page-43

 

[Spocko]

Unfortunately the MA-1 room correction software doesn't even work with the KH 120 II right now- https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...a-1-automatic-monitor-alignment.17902/page-43

WHAT?! argh, well, then I'll just hold off on getting the MA-1 until that's resolved. Do I have to lurk in the Neumann forums until this happens? I can't imagine it would take longer than a year but you never know...

 

[twntyfive2life]

WHAT?! argh, well, then I'll just hold off on getting the MA-1 until that's resolved. Do I have to lurk in the Neumann forums until this happens? I can't imagine it would take longer than a year but you never know...

Yeah it's very frustrating, I've been in contact with their support since last week and they acknowledged the problem but no ETA yet

 

[J-B]

WHAT?! argh, well, then I'll just hold off on getting the MA-1 until that's resolved. Do I have to lurk in the Neumann forums until this happens? I can't imagine it would take longer than a year but you never know...

MA-1 is also essential for me.
That's why I contacted Neumann at the end of April, asking about the KH 120 II compatibility... before ordering.
What's especially bad is that they confirmed it's compatibility while users here are reporting this is not true.

 

[enricoclaudio]

Knowing if the MA-1 software supports the KH 120 IIs is easy. Just grab this MA-1 Mic serial number and check it yourself. Of course, measurements are not going to work if you use a different mic but at least you will find if the KH 120 IIs are supported like Neumann says.

 

[Spocko]

Knowing if the MA-1 software supports the KH 120 IIs is easy. Just grab this MA-1 Mic serial number and check it yourself. Of course, measurements are not going to work if you use a different mic but at least you will find if the KH 120 IIs are supported like Neumann says.

View attachment 284225

Apologies for the ignorance, but what am I looking for when reading the serial number? Is there a database somewhere that cross-references MA1 compatibility between the serial number and KH120ii? My speakers won't be arriving until June, but I pre-ordered the MA1 bundle from Sweetwater and I don't want to waste time trying to figure things out if the software isn't ready for use yet LOL

 

[Pearljam5000]

It should support both KH150 and KH120II

 

[enricoclaudio]

Apologies for the ignorance, but what am I looking for when reading the serial number? Is there a database somewhere that cross-references MA1 compatibility between the serial number and KH120ii? My speakers won't be arriving until June, but I pre-ordered the MA1 bundle from Sweetwater and I don't want to waste time trying to figure things out if the software isn't ready for use yet LOL

The serial number printed on the mic will allow you to enter into the calibration process then you will know if the KH120 IIs are supported before purchasing the MA-1 Mic. You need the MA-1 Mic serial number to get access to the calibration process and the serial number printed in that MA-1 from Sweetwater is legit and it works. Of course, if you don't have the KH120 IIs yet, then it makes no sense.

 

[twntyfive2life]

View attachment 284235
It should support both KH150 and KH120II

It should, but it doesn't. Neumann support has acknowledged this but they did not give me an ETA yet on when it will.