Naim sound

[HansHolland]

ok, friends?

We try to explain the "typical" Naim sound. I am not the only one who can hear that.

So what gives that Naim sound:
1: limited bandwidth? I don't think so, because then nCore (with it's even lower bandwidth in the highs) should have the same sound (and all other amplifiers with such a bandwidth)
2: high sensitivity? I don't think so, with low sensitivity loudspeakers and listining from a distance I don't hear noise, but i still hear the Naim sound
3: ???? yes, probably something else. I have respect for Naim for being able to create this sound so stable for years
4: combination of factors? maybe

conclusion: I don't know

 

[Soniclife]

ok, friends?

We try to explain the "typical" Naim sound. I am not the only one who can hear that.

So what gives that Naim sound:
1: limited bandwidth? I don't think so, because then nCore (with it's even lower bandwidth in the highs) should have the same sound (and all other amplifiers with such a bandwidth)
2: high sensitivity? I don't think so, with low sensitivity loudspeakers and listining from a distance I don't hear noise, but i still hear the Naim sound
3: ???? yes, probably something else. I have respect for Naim for being able to create this sound so stable for years
4: combination of factors? maybe

conclusion: I don't know

If you really want to know send gear in to be measured. I'll be very interested in the results, even though I no longer own any.

 

[bigLP]

Ive owned UQ2, nap100, nait xs and nait xs 2. Ive recently sold off all of my naim gear I'm currently building a new system around ATI ncore amp(the big 500x2).
The nap100 was my favorite sounding naim amp of all the above. Sounded far bigger than its output would leave you to believe. was coherent, driving and emotive for me with a variety of mostly monitor type speakers. My ATI ncore amp with UQ2 as preamp sounded like Naim. The uq2 driving the nap100 was Naimier for better or worse. I will always love the naim sound. But you do make sacrifices. When i still had all the stuff I used 3 diffrent preamps to compare the nap 100 and ATI. The change in preamps always more noticeable through ATI. The nap 100 homogenized them all a bit. They both sounded good in their own ways.

 

[bigLP]

Now that im forced to think about it. I wish I hadnt unloaded the nap100. For what it costs, the size it takes up etc.
Also, Ive never seen measurements of Naim, I dont bother to describe what I hear to others because it is soooo subjective.
As far as the sound....I always thought star grounding, power supply/regulation and near to class B (though I think they are class AB now?) operation did it.
In the past i know Naim amps lacked some output circuit that managed impedence or something(zoblieski?) that made specific wire a mandate. That is no longer true, but the bespoke speaker connections are still a mandate according to naim. Some of the smarter people here can correct my elementary understanding of the above technical things I think Ive reads before............

 

[Thomas savage]

Naim that sound .,

Bad.

 

[Lbstyling]

I had to reply to this conversation! I like many have owned far too many amplifiers (hundreds). Naim do sound different. It's obvious after 30 seconds of playing any heavy rock track or classical.
I even blind tested a nait 5i, and you could reliably pick it out. It is always the one that sounds amazing, but has limited soundstage.

I have heard many explanations, but have never found the cause. They 'sound' like they increase the dynamic range of music, but this cannot be right.
My money was always on the combination of impedance and deliberate distortion profile.

We need to test one!

 

[Soniclife]

If it's a real thing that exits in controlled listening tests, my guess is on how they clip, a lot are low powered, and the Naim character is less in the higher powered units.

 

[Lbstyling]

If it's a real thing that exits in controlled listening tests, my guess is on how they clip, a lot are low powered, and the Naim character is less in the higher powered units.

Would make total sense. In the same way that some valve amps clip in a way that basically compresses the music. We know that compression is enjoyable in some fashion, as so many tracks have it added to give the impression of a harder hitting track. I would describe the effect as one that gets stronger as you raise the volume too.

The old olive amps were only 30w or so. I know they are very picky about their output devices (sanken) too!

 

[mjwin]

Interesting about the "Naim sound". If this is indeed audible, it might well be due to the low output voltage swing & the early onset of clipping, as has been suggested above.

I've always had a soft spot for Naim power amps. Though my experience with their designs ended around 35 years ago! In the early days, the Naim amps were designed to be solid*, reliable, low distortion devices. Having an interest in such things (& building my own amps at the time) I bought a used Naim 110 in about 1984. Spec'd at 40W into 8 ohms, it worked just fine in a low-power system in a tiny room. I opened it up and was impressed by the build quality which closely resembled that of low-volume industrial products of the time. But, when I drew out the circuit diagram, I noticed that it was a very simple design with few of the linearising elements which I would have used myself. Then, on checking the transistor types, I noticed that almost all devices were specified for RF use (High fT).

I happened to meet Julian Vereker (Naim founder) shortly after that, and we were chatting about amplifier design, output current delivery (a strong point in Naim's marketing) & bandwidth. So I asked him why he used RF devices? He said something to the effect that "so that it's fast & doesn't run out of feedback". I later though more about this and realized that distortion was pretty much an inverse function of feedback. A high open-loop bandwidth ensured sufficient gain was available at high frequencies to minimize distortion. So it was a "fast" amplifier, though following good engineering practice, the overall bandwidth was limited by an RC filter on the input with a turnover frequency of around 50kHz (iirc), so filtering out any ultrasonic noise which might come its way.

35 years later, I still have that Naim 110 amp. Its use in my audio system was limited as I found it easy to run into clipping. To be fair, it really wasn't powerful enough for my 82dB/W speakers! Though it was quickly replaced by larger amps of my own design, the trusty 110 then found some use driving stepper motors in my lab, which it handled without complaint! Later, it got lent to someone & has spent the best part of 20 years permanently powered up and playing music at low volume. It was recently returned to me, none the worse for wear, and still works perfectly with all of its original capacitors!

But I know nothing of the newer designs. Since Julian's untimely death, the company has changed. Their manufacture of audio components for Bentley motor cars pretty neatly sums up where they stand, so "quality" & longevity is still important. But I find their marketing spiel offputting, with its references to audiophoolery (power cables) and suchlike. A far cry from the early days.

It would be good to have one of the current designs on the lab bench, though. I'd like to think that it would sail through with exemplary performance, but that's just my own expectation bias!
--
* See the Naim marketing poster, "I'm sorry, I didn't catch your naim".

 

[bigLP]

Naim is a very different company today. I'm not sure J.V. would love the direction the company has gone. Some old school flat earther Naim folks dislike the companies embrace of digital/streaming and the all in one uniti stuff too. But that's what fueled its comeback of the last decade. I think the unitiqute was a landmark product. It dragged me back in hifi. One thing about Naim is their watts sound bigger and denser than many others. I could a b my unitiqute 30x2 with my mcintosh ma6500 150x2 and the Naim sounds bigger, better and punchier. The amps in uniti and smaller nait a bit brighter than superuniti and xs2/xs3 sound. I've honestly never heard the newer power amps on their own, other than the nap 100, which is similar to smaller naits and nothing like their 200dr/250dr amps

 

[debunker]

1. It is correct that Naim 100 specifies -3 dB at 69 kHz (nice). It is NOT correct that the -3 dB cutoff for the nc400 is "around 50 kHz". If you look at the graph in amir's review, it's almost exactly 60 kHz.

2. Without seeing the actual frequency response of the Naim, it's impossible to know what kind of rolloff it may have in the audible band below 20 kHz. Is it flat beyond 20 kHz with a steeper rolloff, or is it much more gradual one with a clear drop in response in the audible range? Absolutely no conclusion can be made without this info and there is no benefit in comparing it to the nCore.

3. restorer-john stated that he was talking about vintage Naim amps and that he hadn't looked at any recently. The Nap 100 came out in 2013 and is not vintage by any definition and hence isn't what he was talking about.

4. While admittedly speculation on my part, this is likely the kind of thing res-jo is referring to: https://www.stereophile.com/content/naim-nait-integrated-amplifier-1989-measurements. Nearly -2 dB at 20 kHz, -0.5 dB at 10 kHz, and rolloff beginning under 5 kHz.

 

[david1111]

Like many of us, I've also had quite a few different amps and preamps move thru my system over the years.
HK, NAD, Adcom, Ayre, conrad johnson, Arcam, just off the top of my head. Some excellent gear to be sure.
Then, about a year and a half ago, I purchased my first Naim piece. It was a Superuniti, which is an all-in-one unit that has a streamer, an internet radio, an FM tuner, a whack of digital and analgue inputs and outputs, and a very good preamp section, and ... wait for it ... an excellent 80 wpc power amplifier.

Now, my audio spidey-sense tells me that putting all these electronics in one box should sound like ca ca doo doo (Elvira's words, not mine). But really, I've listened to a lot of gear, and I was very surprised how good it made my re-conditioned Kef R107's sound.

I was so impressed, that I have since purchased a Naim Supernait 2 integrated amplifier, and I run the Superuniti preamp digital stuff thru the Supernait 2 amp, and it sounds even better, even with bypassing the higher-end pre in the Supernait 2.

What I find overall, is that the Naim gear just sounds good and simplifies my audio gear life. It sounds different, of course, like any of the well-designed audio components; they all have their unique sounds. I always wanted to get a Krell X250.5 with an excellent tube amp feeding it, like an ARC Reference 3, or 5e, but the Naim gear just makes any speaker I connect to it, sound great.

I have Kefs, Polks, and Celestions, and I used to be shifting them an inch or two, or toeing them in or out a bit more; but it doesn't seem to matter now where the speakers are exactly. I always have a wide and deep sound stage, and all the instruments are where they're supposed to be, and sound very realistic.

So for me, the Naim gear doesn't really sound any better than any of the other excellent gear out there, but it simplifies the process of creating excellent sounding music in my space(s). I'm finding that the Naim gear has changed my focus to be more about the music, instead of the gear. But I do realize that that's not necessarily everyone's cup 'o tea, cuz experimenting with various setups is certainly a lot of fun and a large part of the hobby.

Anyhoo, just my experiences.
Cheers.

Dave

 

[GXAlan]

That does sound like McIntosh. The amps measure well, but even fans of McIntosh admit that there is something euphonic about the sound even if it’s colored. The bass is a bit fatter and if you look at the advertised damping factor, McIntosh is pretty low, courtesy of the autoformers. It is possible that is what Naim is doing. The coloration is not a fixed EQ that some seem to suggest is bad. It correlates to the target speaker and the musical program.

I really wish someone local to Amir would submit a McIntosh amp for review, either modern or vintage. The problem is that shipping is prohibitively expensive and I say that having shipped six speakers (three pairs) across international waters to him.

 

[Westsounds]

Like many of us, I've also had quite a few different amps and preamps move thru my system over the years.
HK, NAD, Adcom, Ayre, conrad johnson, Arcam, just off the top of my head. Some excellent gear to be sure.
Then, about a year and a half ago, I purchased my first Naim piece. It was a Superuniti, which is an all-in-one unit that has a streamer, an internet radio, an FM tuner, a whack of digital and analgue inputs and outputs, and a very good preamp section, and ... wait for it ... an excellent 80 wpc power amplifier.

Now, my audio spidey-sense tells me that putting all these electronics in one box should sound like ca ca doo doo (Elvira's words, not mine). But really, I've listened to a lot of gear, and I was very surprised how good it made my re-conditioned Kef R107's sound.

I was so impressed, that I have since purchased a Naim Supernait 2 integrated amplifier, and I run the Superuniti preamp digital stuff thru the Supernait 2 amp, and it sounds even better, even with bypassing the higher-end pre in the Supernait 2.

What I find overall, is that the Naim gear just sounds good and simplifies my audio gear life. It sounds different, of course, like any of the well-designed audio components; they all have their unique sounds. I always wanted to get a Krell X250.5 with an excellent tube amp feeding it, like an ARC Reference 3, or 5e, but the Naim gear just makes any speaker I connect to it, sound great.

I have Kefs, Polks, and Celestions, and I used to be shifting them an inch or two, or toeing them in or out a bit more; but it doesn't seem to matter now where the speakers are exactly. I always have a wide and deep sound stage, and all the instruments are where they're supposed to be, and sound very realistic.

So for me, the Naim gear doesn't really sound any better than any of the other excellent gear out there, but it simplifies the process of creating excellent sounding music in my space(s). I'm finding that the Naim gear has changed my focus to be more about the music, instead of the gear. But I do realize that that's not necessarily everyone's cup 'o tea, cuz experimenting with various setups is certainly a lot of fun and a large part of the hobby.

Anyhoo, just my experiences.
Cheers.

Dave

I dont think talking about hi-fi subjectively is what this site is all about but I have to say I'm with you on this

I like the sound of Naim in general. Have a Supernait myself with its modestly rated 80wpc, but Ive put it against big 250 and even 500 wpc amps it doesnt sound weaker in anyway. I've combined mine with a Naim DAC and the sound is outstanding, such a music maker and true to the music I find, some of it sound so real as well. Combined with a set of old school epos which are another oddity of a speaker, no crossovers as such, the combo just make some magic happen which is more than the sum of the parts combined.

That does sound like McIntosh. The amps measure well, but even fans of McIntosh admit that there is something euphonic about the sound even if it’s colored. The bass is a bit fatter and if you look at the advertised damping factor, McIntosh is pretty low, courtesy of the autoformers. It is possible that is what Naim is doing. The coloration is not a fixed EQ that some seem to suggest is bad. It correlates to the target speaker and the musical program.

I really wish someone local to Amir would submit a McIntosh amp for review, either modern or vintage. The problem is that shipping is prohibitively expensive and I say that having shipped six speakers (three pairs) across international waters to him.

Nothing wrong with sounding a bit euphoric either.

 

[david1111]

I dont think talking about hi-fi subjectively is what this site is all about but I have to say I'm with you on this

I like the sound of Naim in general. Have a Supernait myself with its modestly rated 80wpc, but Ive put it against big 250 and even 500 wpc amps it doesnt sound weaker in anyway. I've combined mine with a Naim DAC and the sound is outstanding, such a music maker and true to the music I find, some of it sound so real as well. Combined with a set of old school epos which are another oddity of a speaker, no crossovers as such, the combo just make some magic happen which is more than the sum of the parts combined.

The audio friend that initially recommended Naim equipment to me, was always saying not to worry about the lower wattage, because with Naim transformers it didn't seem to matter, there is always lots of current.

But the point I was trying to make was that the Naim sound isn't any better than the sound of any other higher-end electronics. It's just that it seems to work really well for the audio enthusiasts that it works for.

I think the thing that seems to annoy or confuse other audio enthusiasts, is that once someone tries the Naim gear, many of them tend to stick with it and not buy any other labels. And that's not because they arrogantly believe that it's so much better than anything else, it's just that, again, it just works really well for the people that it works for. And once one gets used to the unusual DIN connectors, you realize that even though they're a bit of a pain initially, they do provide a very good connection.

On the Naim audio community site, they spend quite a bit of time talking about, and recommending gear from other manufacturers. Naim doesn't have a problem with that.
There's so much great Hi-Fi equipment out there. Great Hobby.

Dave

 

[Objectivist01]

I dont think talking about hi-fi subjectively is what this site is all about but I have to say I'm with you on this

I like the sound of Naim in general. Have a Supernait myself with its modestly rated 80wpc, but Ive put it against big 250 and even 500 wpc amps it doesnt sound weaker in anyway. I've combined mine with a Naim DAC and the sound is outstanding, such a music maker and true to the music I find, some of it sound so real as well. Combined with a set of old school epos which are another oddity of a speaker, no crossovers as such, the combo just make some magic happen which is more than the sum of the parts combined.


Nothing wrong with sounding a bit euphoric either.

Not according to this forum. Anything which messes with real enigneering is snake oil

 

[GXAlan]

Not according to this forum. Anything which messes with real enigneering is snake oil

Snake oil is the absence of engineering and science.

Science can be applied to the study of subjective experience. We know that “most” people (not all) prefer the subjective “coloration” of the Harman Curve. Objectively, it should sound like a bass boost or recessed treble but subjectively it sounds balanced.

Engineering can be used to deliver objective performance that science may indicate is well beyond the threshold of audibility.

Subjectively, although the optimal speaker has optimal frequency response, optimal in room dispersion/off axis sound, optimal peak SPL, optimal efficiency, and optimal aesthetics, people are unable to afford the optimal speaker. Therefore, people pick their preferred mix of optimal performance for their budget, leading to subjective differences in preferences, still backed by science.

 

[david1111]

Not according to this forum. Anything which messes with real enigneering is snake oil

You make a good point. I really can't come up with any engineering, fact-based reason for why some people love the sound of Naim gear. But, some posters here have been coming up with some negative, engineering based reasons why it sounds different.

If Naim's equipment produced a small sound-stage then no one would buy it. And their 80 wpc amps will drive almost any speaker. And their distortion is measured low, at least in their new stuff, which sounds loads better than their old stuff IME. (I've owned both).

But, I promise I won't post anything else regarding the sound of Naim products without some good fact-based, measurable, support.
I'm new to this forum, and it's refreshing to realize that there won't be any never-ending discussions regarding the unmeasurable, sonic qualities of cables etc.

Dave

 

[Sasha]

Might be output impedance, but looking at the Stereophile measurements of the original Supernait shows only 0.3 ohms: https://www.stereophile.com/content/naim-supernait-integrated-amplifier-measurements

Stereophile's measured frequency response into a simulated speaker load for the Supernait does look like a very (very, very (very)) subtle eq curve. Well, there's more deviation from flat than I could see on a couple of randomly selected Parasound amplifier measurements for instance. (And incidentally those Parasound reviews on Stereophile use a much finer 0.25db scale along the y axis.)

It is hard to tell given the crude scale, but the Supernait's graph looks like it shows a slight peak at around 80hz dropping down by around 0.5db by 20hz and is almost 1db down by 10hz. Then there's a broad swell across the upper midrange, another 0.25db dip around 5Khz, and it looks to be around 0.5db or so down by 15Khz.

There seems to be a similar interaction with Stereophile's speaker load across the Supernait, Nait 5Si and Uniti Nova reviews fwiw.

I have zero expertise re. the limits of audibility at various freqs, but I do dabble with music production and in my limited experience you often only need to make very small (0.5db or sometimes smaller) cuts/boosts to effectively affect/alter the character of a sound.

Could those subtle peaks/troughs in the response be enough to give it an audible character? Would the amp's other qualities such as the ~50db channel separation at higher frequencies reported by John A at Stereophile have any effect?

/waits patiently for someone who actually knows what they're talking about

 

[pozz]

Stereophile's measured frequency response into a simulated speaker load for the Supernait does look like a very (very, very (very)) subtle eq curve. Well, there's more deviation from flat than I could see on a couple of randomly selected Parasound amplifier measurements for instance. (And incidentally those Parasound reviews on Stereophile use a much finer 0.25db scale along the y axis.)

It is hard to tell given the crude scale, but the Supernait's graph looks like it shows a slight peak at around 80hz dropping down by around 0.5db by 20hz and is almost 1db down by 10hz. Then there's a broad swell across the upper midrange, another 0.25db dip around 5Khz, and it looks to be around 0.5db or so down by 15Khz.

There seems to be a similar interaction with Stereophile's speaker load across the Supernait, Nait 5Si and Uniti Nova reviews fwiw.

I have zero expertise re. the limits of audibility at various freqs, but I do dabble with music production and in my limited experience you often only need to make very small (0.5db or sometimes smaller) cuts/boosts to effectively affect/alter the character of a sound.

Could those subtle peaks/troughs in the response be enough to give it an audible character? Would the amp's other qualities such as the ~50db channel separation at higher frequencies reported by John A at Stereophile have any effect?

/waits patiently for someone who actually knows what they're talking about

Those broadband slopes are audible but not overly so. Not enough for a characteristic sound. It could just be mystique around the brand, but it would be nice to have a few of these measured for confirmation.