Naim sound

[sergeauckland]

You obviously can’t hear a difference in Naim amp and an old style Arcam Amp. To me they are at opposite ends of the listening experience. Not something I’ve imagined or read in a magazine, just listening to them without an axe to grind either way.

No, I couldn't. I'm in good company, as following the James Moir and Associates & Martin Colloms tests.

Peter Walker believed strongly that there was no difference in sound between the Quad II, 303 and 405 when each is used within their design capabilities. He commissioned the well-known Audio Consulatants, James Moir & Associates, to hold listening tests using bridged Quad IIs (to get the power up closer to the others) 303 & 405. The listening panel included a BBC engineer, John Crabbe, (Editor of HiFi News) and several other 'luminaries'. The statistical analysis showed that they did no better than guessing.

Martin Colloms disagreed with some of the procedures, and held his own tests with his own panel, using a Quad, Naim and one other amp, with the same results as the James Moir tests, no better than guessing. Both tests were published at the time in HiFi News and/or Wireless World.

This indicates to me that competent amps used within their design parameters for load, level matched and not allowed to clip, will be indistinguishable in a blind test. If they are different, that always shows up in the measurements.

S.

 

[Suffolkhifinut]

No, I couldn't. I'm in good company, as following the James Moir and Associates & Martin Colloms tests.

Peter Walker believed strongly that there was no difference in sound between the Quad II, 303 and 405 when each is used within their design capabilities. He commissioned the well-known Audio Consulatants, James Moir & Associates, to hold listening tests using bridged Quad IIs (to get the power up closer to the others) 303 & 405. The listening panel included a BBC engineer, John Crabbe, (Editor of HiFi News) and several other 'luminaries'. The statistical analysis showed that they did no better than guessing.

Martin Colloms disagreed with some of the procedures, and held his own tests with his own panel, using a Quad, Naim and one other amp, with the same results as the James Moir tests, no better than guessing. Both tests were published at the time in HiFi News and/or Wireless World.

This indicates to me that competent amps used within their design parameters for load, level matched and not allowed to clip, will be indistinguishable in a blind test. If they are different, that always shows up in the measurements.

S.

The men you mention are as you said luminaries of the HiFi establishment and deserve their reputations.
When prolonged chopping and changing occurs maybe confusion sets in?
It’s like the old advertising slogan’Can you really tell the difference between Stork and Butter,’ for the younger members of our communities Stork was a popular brand of margarine in the UK. Eating a couple of slices it was quite easy to tell the difference, after several slices there was no difference.
Subjective opinions are just that anyway you look at it whoever is involved.

 

[DSJR]

Still doesn't explain why the sound should be anything but transparent. -70dB of IMD is still only 0.03%, so inaudible.

It's possible, I accept, that the amplifiers are so drift-prone that they 'go off' after a while, but I've not noticed that in any review, and anyway, wouldn't explain why on dealer demos, people heard all the things they were supposed to with NAIM, using new or nearly new amps. I need convincing that it's anything other than hearsay, repeated ad-nauseum by magazines and now forums.

PRAT indeed...
S.

I'll take it to PM I think but before I do -

I sold and demonstrated enough of the stuff from 1977 to 2004 as well as subsequent regular exposure to later models including current samples and over many different samples, pre and post servicing, I feel I could form some experience compared to all manner of 'neutral' alternatives and had reviewer/designer Stan Curtis and reviewer/self styled guru Martin Colloms (if you read between the lines in his reviews) as some kind of objective evidence too (I have the Colloms tests but not the Curtis 42/110 one from an old Hifi For Pleasure review - Gawd that NAP110 was a scrappy sounding thing and nothing like the giant killing but ugly 120 model which preceded it). Post 2000 or so, some gradual internal changes were made and the distortion reduced. I have my memories and first hand experiences, but no doubt they don't fit with the mindset here - and that's absolutely fine as I no longer trust just my hearing and I'm all but retired anyway.

By the way - take a Naim 'SNAIC' interconnect and use it in the Quad pattern of old (it's un-screened inside and the mesh outer screen isn't used at all, or wasn't). It was a great way of turning the venerable (and not great measuring) Quad 405-2 into a Naim-ish sound, with over-wide centre images and narrowed L-R extremes when compared to a cheap fig-8 screened cable as Quad used. Not just THD and IMD Serge, but add it all up and believe me, I think you'd have noticed, especially with other more stable references (I already mentioned the Quad 606 family of amps, a hugely underrated-by-audiophiles now rather traditional amp which can be bought cheaply in the UK and which lasts decades before opening up to check for bulging caps and so on)............

 

[stefanovesa]

Resurrecting this old thread. Nait XS3 owner here. It clearly sounds different than a perfectly transparent Topping LA90 discrete. (I own too). Some instruments are exciting with Naim, in particular baroque classical music, where the tones are not so perfectly intuned sometimes. The modern piano is a total disaster. Distorted is the term that I would use. I know very well the sound of the piano, listened live many times in different venues.
Waiting some US volunteer who sends Amir a recent Naim amp for testing. Living in EU, I cannot embark

 

[aristidis540]

Various amplifiers have passed through my system Marantz,NAD,Roksan,Densen...As soon as I put the Naim(XS) on, I stopped dealing with amplifiers...Since I enjoy my music more and it works for me, I don't look for it anymore....
I'm thinking of changing it to a DAC, although with the humble E30 topping, I've been satisfied with the pair.

 

[Cote Dazur]

I was wondering, from an engineering point of view, what makes Naim amplifier sound "different" from most other amps?

If you do not have measurements to back up the difference and did not even made a blind, level matched, comparison. claiming a difference just demonstrate one more time, that like everybody else, you are subject to perception bias.
Just enjoy you different Naim sound, if that is what you (want to) hear, nothing wrong with that.

 

[DSJR]

If you do not have measurements to back up the difference and did not even made a blind, level matched, comparison. claiming a difference just demonstrate one more time, that like everybody else, you are subject to perception bias.
Just enjoy you different Naim sound, if that is what you (want to) hear, nothing wrong with that.

Naim have had different 'sounds' over the generations though and at the time, direct comparisons were clearly audible (sighted be damned!). Up until the early noughties, older amps went right off the boil as well, needing recaps here and a full reset of offsets and so on (I'm reliably informed there was a genuine reason for this need, to do with early changes made to this old circuit design prior to Naim's use).

Best not say more. This make now is for oldies like me and I doubt peeps younger than fifty would really be interested now, as it's so expensive to buy for what's offered.

 

[Mnyb]

yes you cant just assume as a fact that amp X sounds different .

And then ask why it sounds different as if this was established ?

"I heard it bro" is not a valid argument or data .

There are ofcourse exceptions and no hard lines , with marginal designs .
Was not older NAIM both underpowered ,distorted and unstable especially the small entry level models

 

[whereisbrian]

I had the Naim Nait 1 for a long time, which has fetched exorbitant prices secondhand, along with Naca5 cables and a CD5i CD player.

Frankly, it was satisfactory, apart from the obvious lack of power.

I would say subjectively (although I'm strictly objective) that it produced very good music in a small room.

It's clear that this amplifier has a sonic character that some people appreciate. Then I switched to Linn.
And now D class

Picture from TNT Audio

Gorgeous Naim Nait Restoration & Review | LiQUiD AUDiO

I love the variety of equipment I get to work on. Come with me this time as I restore a lovely little Naim Nait amplifier.

liquidaudio.com.au

 

[Piere]

This is a very old discussion, as long as Naim amps are the on the market me think. Old saying: "Playing Naim is a game." Naim amps sounds only properly with genuine Naim cables as stated in the manual. It's by design. Period!

See also this discussion: https://community.naimaudio.com/t/real-use-case-on-speaker-cable-damaging-naim-amp/26382

 

[sergeauckland]

This is a very old discussion, as long as Naim amps are the on the market me think. Old saying: "Playing Naim is a game." Naim amps sounds only properly with genuine Naim cables as stated in the manual. It's by design. Period!

See also this discussion: https://community.naimaudio.com/t/real-use-case-on-speaker-cable-damaging-naim-amp/26382

That's nonsense. Naim amps of that vintage will work with any cable with sufficient inductance, i.e. cables with spaced conductors, indeed like Naim cable, but there's no magic property of Naim cable that other similar cables lack. Using 'ordinary' twin side-by-side cable may cause instability and any woven cable definitely will due to excessive capacitance (and minimal inductance).

S.

 

[Piere]

Nonsense or not. The tale goes on for more than 20 years now. And for a reason. There is no reason at all an amp requires special cabling. Only "Special" amps Amplifiers should be properly working with any regular speaker cabling.

 

[sergeauckland]

Nonsense or not. The tale goes on for more than 20 years now. And for a reason. There is no reason at all an amp requires special cabling. Only "Special" amps Amplifiers should be properly working with any regular speaker cabling.

The reason is very simple. Naim amps, and one other I can think of ( NVA), make a feature of not being unconditionally stable and thus needing 'special' cable. All it would need is a small output inductor and the problem pretty much goes away, but then they wouldn't be 'special" so losing qudos amongst the technically illiterate.

Marketing over sound engineering.

S

 

[DSJR]

Nait mk1 - Page 96-97

https://www.worldradiohistory.com/UK/Hi-Fi-Choice/1983-1989/Hi-Fi%20Choice%20Iss.%20050%20Amplifiers%20&%20Tuners%201987.pdf

Note the distinctive RIAA response. A nice little soft clipper into the 3.3 ohm Isobarik load, volume over nine-thirty did nothing with a CD player source.

Performance of the then 32.5/HiCap/135s. Page 98-99 of the pdf

Before the whole speaker cable market took off, we used RS 50 or 55 strand cables, twisted together with no issues at all. The original A4 cable used to go off in black, as something in the black dumbbell jacket reacted with the copper. The 2.5mm but 19 strand A5 cable is a pig to bend round corners and seems to have a crisper 'tone' in any system I tried it in. No idea why and it's never been measured I believe, but it does seem different to other more conventional cables I used in a wide variety of systems.

Oh by the way @sergeauckland, The Nait 5i models DID actually have output inductors (YIKES!!!)...

 

[Soniclife]

The 2.5mm but 19 strand A5 cable is a pig to bend round corners and seems to have a crisper 'tone' in any system I tried it in. No idea why and it's never been measured I believe, but it does seem different to other more conventional cables I used in a wide variety of systems.

You are meant to use a hair dryer to heat the insulation if you want to bend it. The specs for A5 are as follows, no need to measure.

Date: 26-Aug-98 02:07
Author: julian vereker
Subject: Cables Again

FOR INFO THE RELEVANT SPECS ARE:

1.3 - 1.5 microHenries per metre (Loop)

MAX 20picoFarads per metre

About 25milliOhms per meter (loop) (0.025 ohms)

MIN Length 3 metres

 

[Panelhead]

The Spectral gear of that vintage also recommended special cables for stability. They recommended high capacitance to limit bandwidth. MIT was designers cable of choice.

 

[DSJR]

You are meant to use a hair dryer to heat the insulation if you want to bend it. The specs for A5 are as follows, no need to measure.

For non Naim gear *of old* I'd sooner have this -

This is the one (disguised as Linn K10) that weaned me off fancy-foo speaker cables -

https://www.amazon.co.uk/KabelDirekt-2x2-5mm%C2%B2-Speakers-Surround-polarity/dp/B098NQJXLH/

 

[Snarfie]

In the last 2-3 years, I've had different amplifiers and integrated amplifiers in my system : Moon i5.3, Musical Fidelity M6i, Hegel H160, Devialet 120, Exposure 3010S2, HK 990, Cambridge Audio 851W, Adcom GFA 555SE, Class D Audio SDS 470C, Sony TA A1ES. I never did any DBT to compare these amps but to be honest I am pretty sure I would have failed if I did. To me, they all sounded pretty good. Some better than others, but no night and day differences between most of them.

Last summer, I bought a Naim Supernait 2 integrated amplifier. This is the first amp that I own that has a "distinctive" sound - not better or worst than the others- but clearly "different" from all the others that I've had. It is a very polarizing sound to say the least : some of my friends love it, some hates it.

I was wondering, from an engineering point of view, what makes Naim amplifier sound "different" from most other amps?

Got more or less same experience with different but compareble amp's. Taking in acount my horrible room acoustics, DSP room correction did lift up my amp ( besides some loss of gain) for about a 60% better sound basicly in all aspects like imaging staging etc. Wandering do you use DSP or do you already have a descent room acoustics.

 

[stefanovesa]

Resurrecting this old thread. Nait XS3 owner here. It clearly sounds different than a perfectly transparent Topping LA90 discrete. (I own too). Some instruments are exciting with Naim, in particular baroque classical music, where the tones are not so perfectly intuned sometimes. The modern piano is a total disaster. Distorted is the term that I would use. I know very well the sound of the piano, listened live many times in different venues.
Waiting some US volunteer who sends Amir a recent Naim amp for testing. Living in EU, I cannot embark

News for my NAIM experience. Apologize if it can sound too subjective, but the sound of the amp became amusing, with only a single type of speaker cable: Linn K20 that has more of less the same specs of own NAIM NAC A5. This seems absurd and I would so much measuring it, but I have not the gear to do that. I've used K20 because NAC A5 is way too expensive and hard to justify. In all the forum That I've read and also in NAIM manuals, the focus is on speaker cable inductance that must pass the 3,5 microH for a single run from amp to speaker. Fixed that, I've found that the next value to focus to is the capacitance. The sound because realistic only with cable with about 16 pF/m of capacitance.
As far I know, only wide-spaced two-parallel conductor cables can accomplish that.

I've tested with:
3 or 7 metres of Mogami 3103 dual crossed cable
3 or 5 metres of Canare 4S11 quad crossed cable
7 metres of Canare 2S11 dual crossed cable

in all the cases above the sound was always dull with exaggerate bass output

with 6 metres of Linn K20 all is fine and the sound is quinte indistinguable from Topping LA90 Discrete, apart noise.

 

[Westsounds]

News for my NAIM experience. Apologize if it can sound too subjective, but the sound of the amp became amusing, with only a single type of speaker cable: Linn K20 that has more of less the same specs of own NAIM NAC A5. This seems absurd and I would so much measuring it, but I have not the gear to do that. I've used K20 because NAC A5 is way too expensive and hard to justify. In all the forum That I've read and also in NAIM manuals, the focus is on speaker cable inductance that must pass the 3,5 microH for a single run from amp to speaker. Fixed that, I've found that the next value to focus to is the capacitance. The sound because realistic only with cable with about 16 pF/m of capacitance.
As far I know, only wide-spaced two-parallel conductor cables can accomplish that.

I've tested with:
3 or 7 metres of Mogami 3103 dual crossed cable
3 or 5 metres of Canare 4S11 quad crossed cable
7 metres of Canare 2S11 dual crossed cable

in all the cases above the sound was always dull with exaggerate bass output

with 6 metres of Linn K20 all is fine and the sound is quinte indistinguable from Topping LA90 Discrete, apart noise.