NAD M33 vs Devialet Expert

[Kal Rubinson]

Are you a dual mono purist? Right down to the paired AC power cords?

No. If I go mono, I go real mono.

 

[watchnerd]

No. If I go mono, I go real mono.

Sick burn.

 

[restorer-john]

The M33 is as much a computer as it is a 'audio' device.

And Bruno and friends are no slouches in amp design.

Are we really missing much*?

*okay, the M33 phono stage might suck, depending on if they implemented it in DSP or analog

Totally agree. It's an audio computer with inbuilt high quality amplifiers. Complete with WiFi cards, network, all the bells and whistles and a very desirable product for sure. And no, not missing much at all. I'd have one to play with if you're handing them out, don't get me wrong.

But would I buy one? No. I'm glad they make it though.

 

[JustJones]

The M33 is as much a computer as it is a 'audio' device.

And Bruno and friends are no slouches in amp design.

Are we really missing much*?

*okay, the M33 phono stage might suck, depending on if they implemented it in DSP or analog

It looks like all analog inputs including phono is converted to digital according to the manual. The manual also says the signal is then sent to digital output but I don't see any digital out.

ADC Sample Rate (applies to Analog Sources only)

An analog audio input is converted to digital signal by making use of
M33’s superb circuitry called analog-to-digital converter (ADC).
Using this ADC Rate feature, the sampling rate of the resulting digital audio
signal (available at the digital output ports) can be converted into three
levels - 48K, 96K and 192K. Make sure that the associated equipment will be
able to handle the applicable digital audio signal level.

11 Analog Gain (applies to Analog Sources only)
Gain adjustment allows all sources to play back at the same volume
level so you don’t need to adjust the volume every time a new source
is selected. It is generally preferable to reduce the level of the loudest
source rather than making louder the softer sources.

12 Phono Type (applies to Phono Sources only)
Select either MM (moving magnet) or MC (moving coil) depending
upon the connected turntable’s phono cartridge.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

It looks like all analog inputs including phono is converted to digital according to the manual. The manual also says the signal is then sent to digital output but I don't see any digital out.

Nor did I.

 

[watchnerd]

It looks like all analog inputs including phono is converted to digital according to the manual. The manual also says the signal is then sent to digital output but I don't see any digital out.

ADC Sample Rate (applies to Analog Sources only)

An analog audio input is converted to digital signal by making use of
M33’s superb circuitry called analog-to-digital converter (ADC).
Using this ADC Rate feature, the sampling rate of the resulting digital audio
signal (available at the digital output ports) can be converted into three
levels - 48K, 96K and 192K. Make sure that the associated equipment will be
able to handle the applicable digital audio signal level.

11 Analog Gain (applies to Analog Sources only)
Gain adjustment allows all sources to play back at the same volume
level so you don’t need to adjust the volume every time a new source
is selected. It is generally preferable to reduce the level of the loudest
source rather than making louder the softer sources.

12 Phono Type (applies to Phono Sources only)
Select either MM (moving magnet) or MC (moving coil) depending
upon the connected turntable’s phono cartridge.

Which sounds potentially promising, as I like DSP-based RIAA, but I have a lot of questions:

1. Is the phono gain done in the digital or analog domain?

2. What are the cartridge loading options?

3. Are other legacy EQ curves beyond RIAA available?

4. Why is the MM cartridge input resistance listed as 56k ohms instead of the industry standard 47k?

 

[restorer-john]

Which sounds potentially promising, as I like DSP-based RIAA, but I have a lot of questions:

1. Is the phono gain done in the digital or analog domain?

2. What are the cartridge loading options?

3. Are other legacy EQ curves beyond RIAA available?

4. Why is the MM cartridge input resistance listed as 56k ohms instead of the industry standard 47k?

Good questions.
1. Phono gain should be at least mostly done in the analogue domain one would think. Feeding uV or mere mV into an A/D is hardly in its sweet spot. They'd be wanting to get up above 1V.
2. Loading is either real (switched physical) or fake.
3. They could offer anything one would think, like that Puffin RIAA pre.
4. Makes no sense- why mess with a defacto standard?

 

[EdW]

The M33 is as much a computer as it is a 'audio' device.

And Bruno and friends are no slouches in amp design.

Are we really missing much*?

*okay, the M33 phono stage might suck, depending on if they implemented it in DSP or analog

I agree completely that Bruno et al are no slouches. Neither are the engineers at ESS, AKM, TI (Burr Brown), XMOS etc. To state the very obvious, the problem is that you cannot just throw these well engineered bits together in a box like Lego building bricks and just hope it’s going to work. Just imagine a mobile phone made this way (clarification: they most certainly aren’t!).
In audio this is especially true too of any mixed digital and high dynamic range analog. We see this with several DAC designs reviewed by Amir which should measure similar from their BOM listing but can be absolutely superb or very mediocre depending on the design skills of the DAC designer. Even putting Purifi modules in a box can be got so badly wrong. Just read some of the excellent postings from Allan of March Audio where he has critiqued several badly engineered and some potentially dangerous designs using these modules. We can be certain that NAD will not fail like this but putting all these functions in one box and achieving the potential performance of the individual components requires a high skill level and if they do this they will have a superb product. Let’s hope NAD have been painstaking in their efforts. Amir’s reviews of AVRs shows that this can be quite a challenge!

 

[watchnerd]

the problem is that you cannot just throw these well engineered bits together in a box like Lego building bricks and just hope it’s going to work.

Do you think the NAD engineers feel differently?

 

[EdW]

Do you think the NAD engineers feel differently?

Not really what they feel but what the resource constraints were during the development phase of the project. Amir’s review of the C658 DAC streamer back in May suggests that if the M33 is to be reasonable, let alone good, they will have needed to up their game in the arena of digital audio. A steep learning curve? I leave you to decide.
On the whole their audio amplification has been reasonable in the past and if they have carefully implemented Bruno’s Purifi amplifier should be OK. It must be emphasised that a class D amplifier PCB layout needs more care and consideration than the layout of a class AB and Bruno’s work is very carefully optimised so any slight PCB changes would possibly require other optimisations to get back to Bruno’s superb performance.

 

[watchnerd]

Not really what they feel but what the resource constraints were during the development phase of the project. Amir’s review of the C658 DAC streamer back in May suggests that if the M33 is to be reasonable, let alone good, they will have needed to up their game in the arena of digital audio. A steep learning curve? I leave you to decide.
On the whole their audio amplification has been reasonable in the past and if they have carefully implemented Bruno’s Purifi amplifier should be OK. It must be emphasised that a class D amplifier PCB layout needs more care and consideration than the layout of a class AB and Bruno’s work is very carefully optimised so any slight PCB changes would possibly require other optimisations to get back to Bruno’s superb performance.

Maybe I'm more optimistic, but I'm not ready to assume the entire NAD engineering crew are incompetent based on the bad performance of a factory refurb C658.

 

[EdW]

The C658 isn’t the only underperformer here. Check out Amir’s review of the M17 last September. If Amir (or Paul Miller over in HiFi News) give the M33 the thumbs up then I’m impressed.

 

[watchnerd]

The C658 isn’t the only underperformer here. Check out Amir’s review of the M17 last September. If Amir (or Paul Miller over in HiFi News) give the M33 the thumbs up then I’m impressed.

The M17 is an AV pre/pro.

Relative to other AVRs, it was 2nd best in SINAD.

If your expectation is that an all-in-one integrated amp or AVR measures as well as standalone DAC and standalone amp separates, you're probably doomed to perpetual disappointment.

Or not the target audience.

Personally, if a product has the features I want, is reliable, and the less-than-perfect measurements are below the audible threshold, I don't worry about it. I've owned expensive separates before, so already had that journey.

Then again, I also listen to vinyl, in addition to digital, and vinyl measures like crap.

 

[Matias]

It looks like all analog inputs including phono is converted to digital according to the manual. The manual also says the signal is then sent to digital output but I don't see any digital out.

I think they meant the analog input is digitized and follows the same path as the digital inputs through the DSP and finally the DAC.


I just saw that there is no USB type B input.

 

[watchnerd]

I just saw that there is no USB type B input.

What would you hook up to it?

 

[watchnerd]

I think they meant the analog input is digitized and follows the same patch the digital inputs through the DSP and finally the DAC.

I interpreted it the same way.

 

[Matias]

What would you hook up to it?

A computer, usually the DACs and streamer/DAC/amps have USB inputs using type B connector.
I guess the only option for local playback is to use its streamer through network, or a DDC converting to one of its digital inputs (RCA coax, AES-EBU, Toslink).

 

[watchnerd]

A computer, usually the DACs and streamer/DAC/amps have USB inputs using type B connector.
I guess the only option for local playback is to use its streamer through network, or a DDC converting to one of its digital inputs (RCA coax, AES-EBU, Toslink).

Why not hook up the computer over the network?

In my current set up, my Roon computer and NAS connect to my living room rig entirely over the network.

 

[Matias]

Why not hook up the computer over the network?

In my current set up, my Roon computer and NAS connect to my living room rig entirely over the network.

I use my setup over the network too but I know a few friends who have a macmini or a dedicated PC connected directly to streamer/dac/amps by USB.

 

[watchnerd]

a few friends who have a macmini or a dedicated PC connected directly to streamer/dac/amps by USB.

That's so 2010.

I did that, too, a decade ago.