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MQA Deep Dive - I published music on tidal to test MQA

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Raindog123

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By "signal" in the paper they mean music. You can see the spectrum of it and it definite not a test signal.

To my curious but non-SME mind, this is very interesting “music“- going to 0dB at 60kHz! And then, if to superimpose it on the MAF curve.... I will definitely have to read all those papers before I jump to my conclusion and judgment. But will definitely need to see more than just this one graph. :)
 

amirm

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The paper won't quite satisfy you. It was supposed to be an appetizer to the MQA paper that never came. It set out to say that filtering music to 44.1 kHz is not good and impacts fidelity. Therefore, you need MQA. It sort of proved its point but then no MQA test came to show efficacy.
 

Tks

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It means this:

1. I use MQA for free on Tidal. It was added to my subscription at no cost to me.

2. I have DACs and players that decode it. Definitely did not pay for it in my player (Roon).

3. I have no issue with someone/MQA trying to build a format and charge people to use it. MP3, AAC, WMA, Dolby, DTS, MPEG, etc. all have license fees (some with very high dollars). The few that were not likely infringed on someone's patent and left it to the implementer to deal with the lawsuit. Folks are paying probably $10 to $20 to license Blu-ray format to build a player and that hasn't cause riots in streets. And companies like Netflix and such are getting sued for millions if not billions of dollars over codec/DRM IP. It is just the way this field works.

4. I see no fear of MQA taking over the world and predicted that Apple and Amazon's of the world would never pay a fee to use it. Amazon has since come out with high-res service with no MQA proving that MQA had no leverage over them, or the the labels.

5. I consider Bob Stuart a professional colleague with major contributions to audio research (AES Fellow, highly reference journal papers, etc.). I would need really good reasons to throw arrows at him.

I realize some of you are motivated differently and that is fine. Just don't ask me to shed blood with you. I have a review to get out. :)

Pardon, but I didnt catch the part about about if youre neutral about the things I listed though.

I appreciate the elaboration (as somewhat alluding to some value propositions in a somewhat fallacious way unfortunately), but I was hoping if I could get quick yes or no to your position on the things I mentioned.
 

Raindog123

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The paper won't quite satisfy you. It was supposed to be an appetizer to the MQA paper that never came. It set out to say that filtering music to 44.1 kHz is not good and impacts fidelity. Therefore, you need MQA. It sort of proved its point but then no MQA test came to show efficacy.

Roger that... But maybe, just maybe, @mieswall will come through with his offer by then... As MQA now exists in implementations, someone must have done all this analysis. We‘ve all read MQA patents, but need to go beyond their “concept hand-waving”. Otherwise, all we - the consumers - would have is @GoldenOne ‘s etc. tests, and those are not pretty [for MQA], not at all.
 
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amirm

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Pardon, but I didnt catch the part about about if youre neutral about the things I listed though.
Your questions were too free form for me to figure what to answer. Anyway, briefly, MQA is not lossless and never was. It was originally pitched as an archive format for analog content so they could have characterized ADC and produced conjugate DAC filtering. In practice they seem to be mass encoding without it. It would be hugely expensive to sit there and encode and analyze one file at a time. I don't know if it sounds worse than something else. I listen to a lot of it and some stuff sounds lousy, some stuff sounds great, much like CD quality tracks. I bought one CD that was was supposed to allow testing of MQA but have not had time to test it. I forget if it was the non-MQA version of the same content on Tidal or what.
 

Tks

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Your questions were too free form for me to figure what to answer. Anyway, briefly, MQA is not lossless and never was. It was originally pitched as an archive format for analog content so they could have characterized ADC and produced conjugate DAC filtering. In practice they seem to be mass encoding without it. It would be hugely expensive to sit there and encode and analyze one file at a time. I don't know if it sounds worse than something else. I listen to a lot of it and some stuff sounds lousy, some stuff sounds great, much like CD quality tracks. I bought one CD that was was supposed to allow testing of MQA but have not had time to test it. I forget if it was the non-MQA version of the same content on Tidal or what.

Sure no problem, ill repeat them. Are you neutral to the following claims:

They have access and provide the true masters of all the audio they offer to consumers.

They can preserve artist intent with respect to the sound the customer is provided.

That MQA is lossless. With respect being able to claim as such: https://www.mqa.co.uk/newsroom/qa/is-mqa-lossless

That it's the original sound as heard by the people during final production.

They have profiled every ADC and that somehow their encoder accounts for all of them for some sort of correction processing for every MQA file rendered to consumers.

That their DACs are able to maintain authentication against tampering so you know youre getting the exact file without any kind of edit?

Bonus: Given the choice of Tidal providing all lossless or all MQA, which would you opt to have between a forced choice between the two?
 

amirm

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Sure no problem, ill repeat them. Are you neutral to the following claims:
I don't know what being neutral has anything to do with the specific questions you are asking. I will answer anyway.

They have access and provide the true masters of all the audio they offer to consumers.
I am not privy to what files the record labels are giving to them. If past experience is any kind of predictor, you can't rely on anything the record labels send as "true master."

They can preserve artist intent with respect to the sound the customer is provided.
I don't know the artist intent. I do know that the artist and labels have the right to approve any distribution so if bits are going out, it is with their implicit permission.

That MQA is lossless. With respect being able to claim as such: https://www.mqa.co.uk/newsroom/qa/is-mqa-lossless
I already answered this. It is not lossless.

That it's the original sound as heard by the people during final production.
No one knows what they heard and I doubt that any of them have gone back and listened to MQA versions any more than they listened to any other releases.

They have profiled every ADC and that somehow their encoder accounts for all of them for some sort of correction processing for every MQA file rendered to consumers.
No. As I mentioned, this is something they can do but likely are not doing it.

That their DACs are able to maintain authentication against tampering so you know youre getting the exact file without any kind of edit?
Within reason, yes. Any cryptographic system can be broken but I suspect theirs is not yet since no one that knows how to break it, cares to do so.

Bonus: Given the choice of Tidal providing all lossless or all MQA, which would you opt to have between a forced choice between the two?
If they both cost the same, I want the original high-resolution files. No MQA. No down conversion to 16/44.1.
 

awdeeoh

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They can preserve artist intent with respect to the sound the customer is provided.
That it's the original sound as heard by the people during final production.

I think this only apply if the record is mastered using MQA.

Most titles are mass encoded 3 years ago.
 

mkawa

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When your drm is so obscure that no one is bothering to try to break it, you are in big trouble. The real question is: when mqa goes under, will people stop arguing about it?
 

JSmith

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MQA and Tidal market MQA tracks as lossless
Indeed they do...
Q. Is MQA Lossless?

A. Yes.
https://www.mqa.co.uk/newsroom/qa/is-mqa-lossless

... yet it is clear this is false. Surely this breaches various countries consumer laws, as in making and advertising false claims?

I haven't read these in their entirety yet... unsure if I should bother;

https://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=18046

https://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=17501



JSmith
 

amirm

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... yet it is clear this is false. Surely this breaches various countries consumer laws, as in making and advertising false claims?
You really think you can argue such a case in front of a lay judge and jury? If we had just facilities, we should go after people who sell $30,000 cables...
 

JSmith

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You really think you can argue such a case in front of a lay judge and jury?
Well therein lies the rub doesn't it? :)
we should go after people who sell $30,000 cables
Agree, however said consumer laws vary drastically from one country to another. Companies here in Aus are very particular about how they word marketing material to avoid such issues, however what is claimed there on MQA UK's site in my opinion would breach our laws here as it appears to be a blatantly false claim simply based on definition of lossless and lossy.

I can only assume such laws in the UK are more vague? Would be good to hear on this from a UK resident or legal representative on this.
Why y'all mad about something y'all don't even subscribe too?
I think what many object to the most is the quasi DRM, secrecy and lack of transparency from MQA. It would be easy for them to clear all this up, however one assumes their data on this is proprietary.



JSmith
 

Tks

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I don't know what being neutral has anything to do with the specific questions you are asking. I will answer anyway.


I am not privy to what files the record labels are giving to them. If past experience is any kind of predictor, you can't rely on anything the record labels send as "true master."


I don't know the artist intent. I do know that the artist and labels have the right to approve any distribution so if bits are going out, it is with their implicit permission.


I already answered this. It is not lossless.


No one knows what they heard and I doubt that any of them have gone back and listened to MQA versions any more than they listened to any other releases.


No. As I mentioned, this is something they can do but likely are not doing it.


Within reason, yes. Any cryptographic system can be broken but I suspect theirs is not yet since no one that knows how to break it, cares to do so.


If they both cost the same, I want the original high-resolution files. No MQA. No down conversion to 16/44.1.

The first thing you seem confused about when I ask about neutrality, is it was prompted by your claim about being neutral toward MQA. This series of questions was to illicit responses to see if that is actually the case. Neutral here is simply to see if you hold to a more agnostic position toward their claims in principal and/or practical considerstion.

So the answers are as follows:

1) Not neutral

2) Not neutral

3) Not neutral

4) Not neutral

5) Not neutral practically, neutral conceptually.

6) Not neutral, but perhaps due to a misunderstanding of my question. The question wasnt asking if their DRM is cracked, but simply whether it is garanteeing against any edits to the files in their entirety. This has been shown not to be the case since there are demonstrations of truncated files still showing the blue light on fully certified MQA DACs.

7) Not neutral.

So with all this out the way we go right back to the original post I pinged you for, when you said you always held a neutral position toward MQA. Ive asked and got satisfactory answers. But now I'm left wondering just what parts do you take it you were neutral toward with respect to MQA itself? I am already aware of the affinity toward Bob, and the predilection you hold toward the sort of product they peddle. What I'm wondering is, what aspects of the purported capabilites of the tech do you think you're neutral about?
 

Tks

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You really think you can argue such a case in front of a lay judge and jury? If we had just facilities, we should go after people who sell $30,000 cables...

Of course MQA needs to go down first. $30,000 cables and their lies can only affect a limited number of people, while MQA has polluted an entire streaming platform and threatens others, potentially even hi-res downloads themselves.

The fact they've made so many troublesome claims is enough. The fact that you talk about chasing cable makers instead, implies heavily that MQA should also be chased to some degree.
 

amirm

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The first thing you seem confused about when I ask about neutrality, is it was prompted by your claim about being neutral toward MQA. This series of questions was to illicit responses to see if that is actually the case.
Not really. You asked a bunch of questions which had nothing to do with my net conclusion which is I don't care one way or the other. MQA is there for me to use for free. If a music I search for is MQA, I play and enjoy. If not, I still play and enjoy. If you were in my shoes, would you slash your wrist when you saw an MQA clip come up in Tidal? If so, then you are violently against it. And I am not. I am not going to tell anyone to adopt MQA. Or not. I just don't think this is at all an important topic. This is neutrality in the most pure sense.
 

amirm

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Of course MQA needs to go down first. $30,000 cables and their lies can only affect a limited number of people, while MQA has polluted an entire streaming platform and threatens others, potentially even hi-res downloads themselves.
You are way wrong on this. Nothing has gotten "polluted" lest you show me listening test results that demonstrate audibility has suffered as such. You have any? If not, then that is that.
 

Chrispy

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Not really. You asked a bunch of questions which had nothing to do with my net conclusion which is I don't care one way or the other. MQA is there for me to use for free. If a music I search for is MQA, I play and enjoy. If not, I still play and enjoy. If you were in my shoes, would you slash your wrist when you saw an MQA clip come up in Tidal? If so, then you are violently against it. And I am not. I am not going to tell anyone to adopt MQA. Or not. I just don't think this is at all an important topic. This is neutrality in the most pure sense.

So how is mqa enabled software/hardware "free"? It's really hard to understand mqa or tidal or mqa cd's as anything but bullshit....
 
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