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"Micro Bamboo Project" : 3E Audio 260-2-29A Stereo amplifier + Micro-Audio PSU

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daniboun

daniboun

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"Do not trust your ears" - that's what bothers me in fact. And not Amir's measurements and reviews.
They are a great help however they shoud be percived like a guide or map to bulid a cohesive and well-ballanced audio system.
Enjoing the SINAD scores alone without inviting one's ears for the sound impression (or final buying decision) sounds really unconvincing in the audio world. At least for me.

I don't know if you had the opportunity to read my comparison between my Micro Bamboo project and Ash-400. I avoid, as much as possible, not involving my subjectivity. This is why I put things into perspective while waiting for ASR test. I use my ears like everyone else I think but I try to have enough perspective to say that they are not always trustworthy.

 

timiambeing

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Ok, I'll bite...

What measurable characteristics about caps that cost 4X more $ make them actually demonstrably better?
ESL?
ESR?
Temp Coefficient?
Voltage Coefficient?
Something else?
Just saying they sound better isn't an answer.

Capacitors seem to be the new cables. Spend lots of $ on boutique components without actually knowing why.
Ok I'll bite too! In good humour I hope ;) and not just in response to you my friend!

Its not how the expensive capacitors measure, its how they sound, they could measure identically and sound different - crossover designers have been playing with various brands of capacitors for years to achieve the 'sound' they want. Using the term 'better' is probably not appropriate, does the resulting air movement hitting my ears from the speaker cone sound more lifelike, when interpreted by my brain interface, does it sound more like actual voices and instruments? Then in my opinion it might well be described as 'better'.

The other argument for fidelity is "Is it true to the source?" and for years this was my own clarion cry! :) But really, who would ever know. Unless you were probably there in the studio in the booth with the vocalist how would you know, even then by the time the engineer and the (may they be forever damned in hell :rolleyes:) producer get their hands on the track it could sound totally different to the live event. In fact thinking about it the 'source' is actually the ears of the engineer at the mixing desk, which will depend on the audio interface used, the cans they are using and of course their own subjective sensory experience.

I suppose if we are saying that if a component does not add anything or take anything away then we are good to go, but that can't be measured in completeness, only some of the characteristics of the component can be measured. Its good to know these, but they only provide a guideline towards its proper functioning within recognised parameters, not how it will influence the eventual sound I hear.

I love my audiophile hobby, I've been hooked for decades and it has provided me with thousands of hours of listening enjoyment, its fun is what it is, and reducing all that fun down to a handful of measurements that purport to tell the whole story I feel is a little sad! Nothing to get anxious about, because one man's meat will always be another's poison - but there is a knock on effect mentioned all over the internet on forums and bulletin boards. We now have an entire industry it seems, ever more willing to bring out a new and unnecessary product that measures just a point or two better than the previous product, SMSL and Topping you know who you are!

But that's ok too, because there are plenty of other suppliers who still wave that magic wand over their averagely measuring discrete component DAC and somehow it will sound more real, more lifelike, more engaging than a few chips and an op amp. True, they will charge more for their magic dust, and who is to blame them! :cool:
 

timiambeing

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I don't think many people would buy a DAC that measures poorly at $2200? I am also not convinced that you would have bought it if you had read the measurements beforehand....
I apologise for starting the debate again - it seems others have joined the throng!! My involvement will cease very shortly!! :) Many people have bought Denafrips DAC's, many people swear by the technology as being able to reassemble the waveform in an enjoyable and realistic way - I didn't think it measured all that poorly, compared to other ladder DACs I mean. I know one thing, it sounds divine... and that's after some serious comparisons with market leading delta-sigma designs whilst I was in the buying process. Measurements are not the only fruit...

...and now, let's forget all that because as you say later in the thread to someone, this is what ASR is all about and we don't want to engage the entire congregation of measurement disciples in the debate do we! We laugh at you, you laugh at us, we both deserve it... but I hope we both have something to bring to this engaging hobby so its all good!

Now back to the point of this thread and how Class D amps are evolving, technically, in a measurable way! Looking forward to hearing about new projects and designs you are trying and learning how they differ from cheaper off the shelf solutions. I'm not sure I'm that DIY capable with the drilling of holes and stuff, especially for the input and output connectors, but maybe these new boards will be supported by ready made cases and kits at some point?
 

bugal

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I don't know if you had the opportunity to read my comparison between my Micro Bamboo project and Ash-400. I avoid, as much as possible, not involving my subjectivity. This is why I put things into perspective while waiting for ASR test. I use my ears like everyone else I think but I try to have enough perspective to say that they are not always trustworthy.

Yes, I follow this thread, as well as some other ones regarding recent D-class amps, new DACs, etc. And I appriaciate your work, sharing your insights and ideas.
Good job, anyway!
 
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Treborha

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I apologise for starting the debate again - it seems others have joined the throng!! My involvement will cease very shortly!! :) Many people have bought Denafrips DAC's, many people swear by the technology as being able to reassemble the waveform in an enjoyable and realistic way - I didn't think it measured all that poorly, compared to other ladder DACs I mean. I know one thing, it sounds divine... and that's after some serious comparisons with market leading delta-sigma designs whilst I was in the buying process. Measurements are not the only fruit...

...and now, let's forget all that because as you say later in the thread to someone, this is what ASR is all about and we don't want to engage the entire congregation of measurement disciples in the debate do we! We laugh at you, you laugh at us, we both deserve it... but I hope we both have something to bring to this engaging hobby so its all good!

Now back to the point of this thread and how Class D amps are evolving, technically, in a measurable way! Looking forward to hearing about new projects and designs you are trying and learning how they differ from cheaper off the shelf solutions. I'm not sure I'm that DIY capable with the drilling of holes and stuff, especially for the input and output connectors, but maybe these new boards will be supported by ready made cases and kits at some point?

I have a Denafrips Ares mk1 DAC and in combination with the 3E Audio 260-2-29A amplifier it sounds very good. I recommend folding. denafrips devices are very, very good DACs
 

timiambeing

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I have a Denafrips Ares mk1 DAC and in combination with the 3E Audio 260-2-29A amplifier it sounds very good. I recommend folding. denafrips devices are very, very good DACs
I think that is key to what I am starting to find, that by combining a very transparent and clear amplifier (like a well measuring Class D design) with a DAC that shall we say has been 'voiced' for a extremely realistic and musical presentation gives you the best of both worlds. I have just replaced the Schiit Bifrost multi-bit DAC in my headphone system with a Sabaj A20d 2022 version and the extra detail and information it provides is working perfectly with my existing Rebel Amp Class A design headphone amplifier. In fact I am listening right now and the Rebel amp, as opposed the excellent clean and clear amp in the Sabaj, brings such weight and authority to the sound that makes it far more believable.

@Treborha did you DIY your 3E Audio 260-2-29A amplifier? Sorry if I have missed your previous posts... :)
 

Treborha

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I think that is key to what I am starting to find, that by combining a very transparent and clear amplifier (like a well measuring Class D design) with a DAC that shall we say has been 'voiced' for a extremely realistic and musical presentation gives you the best of both worlds. I have just replaced the Schiit Bifrost multi-bit DAC in my headphone system with a Sabaj A20d 2022 version and the extra detail and information it provides is working perfectly with my existing Rebel Amp Class A design headphone amplifier. In fact I am listening right now and the Rebel amp, as opposed the excellent clean and clear amp in the Sabaj, brings such weight and authority to the sound that makes it far more believable.

@Treborha did you DIY your 3E Audio 260-2-29A amplifier? Sorry if I have missed your previous posts... :)


I recently started the amplifier. I'm sorry that I'm writing briefly, but I don't speak English and I use a translator


20240216_141822.jpg
 
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daniboun

daniboun

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I have a Denafrips Ares mk1 DAC and in combination with the 3E Audio 260-2-29A amplifier it sounds very good. I recommend folding. denafrips devices are very, very good DACs

I don't share this opinion ) checkout full measurements with APx555 B-Series Analyzer
I won't enter into the debate this time) BTW, a friend has it and I had the pleasure of testing it. (VS the Sabaj A10D)

 
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daniboun

daniboun

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I recently started the amplifier. I'm sorry that I'm writing briefly, but I don't speak English and I use a translator

What about your feeling in a few words ?
 

Treborha

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I don't share this opinion ) checkout full measurements with APx555 B-Series Analyzer
I won't enter into the debate this time) BTW, a friend has it and I had the pleasure of testing it. (VS the Sabaj A10D)



Oh, and I think so, let everyone stick to their own opinion and enjoy the music
 

ai1

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I recently started the amplifier. I'm sorry that I'm writing briefly, but I don't speak English and I use a translator
View attachment 350514
Hi Treborha,
I was wondering what volume control/RC unit you use in your amplifier?
-----------------------------
Cześć Treborha,
Zastanawiałem się, jaki moduł regulacji głośności/zdalnego sterowania jest używany w twoim wzmacniaczu?

Sorry, this is deepl translation...
 

timiambeing

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BTW, a friend has it and I had the pleasure of testing it. (VS the Sabaj A10D)
Sorry didn’t see this bit in your original post - that’s funny I’ve just bought the Sabaj A10d 2022 version for my headphone rig, so far it’s very detailed and clear, no nasties at all, seems to be a keeper! It replaces a Schiit Bifrost 2 which after a few months I thought was maybe not best suited to the Rebel amp class A warmth - this Sabaj seems to be a good match. I wanted to try one of the good measuring Chinese’s DAC’s to see but couldn’t figure out which one, there’s so many! The Sabaj just wooed me with its different look, well made case and chunky feel… I know it’s probably an SMSL something or other inside probably! :)

PS. I was going for the one you have and recommend, but Amazon UK had a long delivery time so the Sabaj got the vote. I’m thinking of trying it with the main system and the ICEPower amp, not that the Denafrips isn’t amazing of course :cool: but it would be fascinating to hear…
 

CJH

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Any thoughts about using the LOF750-20B48 instead of the LOF550 (only $10 more) for a FB360 build?
CJH
 
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daniboun

daniboun

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Any thoughts about using the LOF750-20B48 instead of the LOF550 (only $10 more) for a FB360 build?
CJH

Get the Micro Audio instead better choice. )
Keep in mind that the TPA3255 chips
only support 12A max
 

jlx

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Get the Micro Audio instead better choice. )
Keep in mind that the TPA3255 chips
only support 12A max
why is the micro audio a better choice?
The Mornsun published specs are excellent, with passive cooling it will put out maximum 400 watts before derating, and 750 watts with a small 20 cfm fan. As it stands the micro is 630 watts with a fan and no one knows what it puts out with passive air cooling or at what temp it derates since they don't publish specs the way the rest of the manufacturers do.
as a bonus the Mornsun is also smaller
 
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daniboun

daniboun

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why is the micro audio a better choice?
The Mornsun published specs are excellent, with passive cooling it will put out maximum 400 watts before derating, and 750 watts with a small 20 cfm fan. As it stands the micro is 630 watts with a fan and no one knows what it puts out with passive air cooling or at what temp it derates since they don't publish specs the way the rest of the manufacturers do.
as a bonus the Mornsun is also smaller

These 2 PSUs are excellent. What differs from them is that the Micro Audio is not regulated. I shared the FFT of the Micro Audio in the previous pages and it does better than the Hypex PSUs which are a reference on the market. I invite you to read my feelings on the combo TPA325X + unregulated PSU vs TPA325X + regulated PSU. Personally I prefer the Micro Audio in terms of quality and performance. Just my point of view )
 

jlx

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These 2 PSUs are excellent. What differs from them is that the Micro Audio is not regulated. I shared the FFT of the Micro Audio in the previous pages and it does better than the Hypex PSUs which are a reference on the market. I invite you to read my feelings on the combo TPA325X + unregulated PSU vs TPA325X + regulated PSU. Personally I prefer the Micro Audio in terms of quality and performance. Just my point of view )
And your experiences and point of view are appreciated
But yes, I have been following everything, but I see no advantage to the better FFT result over the Hypex. So conceivably both exceed the specs required by the amp modules wherein they will not contribute negatively in any audible way, but one measures slightly better so it is possibly, but not confirmed, that it contributes even less negatively so it is even more inaudible. Do we have any proof or data that a psu design that betters the Hypex psu affects the amp modules output in any measurable way?
Surely Hypex has designed their supply to not affect output of their fantastic amp modules negatively, right?
of course the above comparison has no bearing on my initial question as it does not address the Mornsun in any way.

I see no benefit of any kind to running an unregulated PSU (micro) vs the regulated Mornsun, except of course that the Mornsun can provide a very highly efficient 400 watts all day long before thermally induced derating and it is a medical grade product with a high MTBF, with a higher maximum power output in a smaller package for a similar, if not lower price.

I have no idea what the Micro Audio can put out beyond knowing it has a fan cooled 630 watt maximum. This especially concerns me as very few of us ever install cooling fans, so what do I really have here with the Micro Audio passively cooled? 200 watts ? 300 watts? I have no idea as their is no data given with measurements taken adhering to established protocols

I have no reason to think the overall quality of the Micro Audio is superior or that it will last longer than the Mornsun or for that matter the excellent Hypex PSU
I do feel the Micro audio appears to be a high quality unit overall put out by a company that builds very fine products
for my 3 channel mono module build I will likely choose the 750 watt Mornsun as I don't need more than 200w x3 absolute output plus a pinch of headroom
 
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