Marantz AV7705 Home Theater Processor Review

[Martin_320]

Yes I think we are on the same page now.
...
there is also noise in a digital to analog system that exists above the content. In the absence of a filter you get true aliasing. That aliasing introduces some distortion in the high frequencies.
...

Many thanks Matthew for your explanation, although I don't follow your long para relating to this other distortion or aliasing. To me "aliasing" happens when you don't low-pass filter a signal before is sampled; or down-sampling without first filtering the 'input'.
And when you say "above" the content, do you mean above the Nyquist? Is there any diagram you could link to that describes visually what you are saying above?

 

[Sal1950]

I have one coming for review. However, the only changes are the addition of 8K. No changes to the digital or analog section. That doesn't mean these issues weren't resolved, if any are software, but it does mean that its unlikely to be different.

I was just reminded of your incoming AV7706 by todays Audioholics email,
"Our own Matt Poes has an AV7705 in hand and we plan on getting him an AV7706 to do a direct comparison on features and performance so stay tuned..."
If possible it would be great to see it measured on Gene's AP to see if anything has changed.
TIA, Sal

 

[Matthew J Poes]

I was just reminded of your incoming AV7706 by todays Audioholics email,
"Our own Matt Poes has an AV7705 in hand and we plan on getting him an AV7706 to do a direct comparison on features and performance so stay tuned..."
If possible it would be great to see it measured on Gene's AP to see if anything has changed.
TIA, Sal

I can actually measure it on my own. The performance of these are poor enough to even be measured completely by the Quantum Asylum QA401. However I also have the QA480 oscillator and notch filter, so I can measure it, no matter how clean it is.

However, I am also re-locating to Sarasota and will be driving distance to Gene and can measure it on the AP as well.

I've measured the AV7705 on the QA401 already. My numbers match Amir's in both single-ended and balanced. I had thought that it might be better in single-ended because of the nature of the design, but it's not. I can't post the results here yet since those are going into our video and article. As Amir already said, buy the AV7705/6 for the features. Don't buy it for the performance. I hope the AV7706 is better, but based on what I've been told, it should be identical.

 

[Sal1950]

I can actually measure it on my own.

Thanks Matt, I look forward to reading your review at Audioholics. It will probably reveal the same weaknesses but we can hope. LOL
Not only that but continuing to shine a public eye on the problems may one day bring about some concern by, and improvement in the technology used Marantz digital products across the board. IMHO the AV770X line has offered one of the best feature-set bang for the buck in the reasonably priced end of the market. IF ONLY ---------------------------------

 

[Matthew J Poes]

Thanks Matt, I look forward to reading your review at Audioholics. It will probably reveal the same weaknesses but we can hope. LOL
Not only that but continuing to shine a public eye on the problems may one day bring about some concern by, and improvement in the technology used Marantz digital products across the board. IMHO the AV770X line has offered one of the best feature-set bang for the buck in the reasonably priced end of the market. IF ONLY ---------------------------------

I don’t expect major changes in the line. I do have an opinion on this but I have to save something for the article, right!

from a feature set standpoint, I think it’s quite good. I’ve had the HTP-1, Marantz, Onkyo, and NAD processors/receivers in my setup and I find the Marantz easy to use and enjoyable. It’s measurement issues are not glaringly obvious when listening to it. It sounds fine. I too wish it measured better. It basically measured like a receiver, even one that costs a lot less. It probably basically is internally. But you can’t get a lot of receivers that have the same features for substantially less. When I talked to Marantz, that was how they presented it to me. It’s not for people who want SOTA measured performance. It’s for people who want the most bang for the buck in a processor.

but Amir’s complaint is reasonable. At this price point, it can offer both. It could measure better, hopefully then sound better, and also offer all these great features.

in some ways I wonder if part of the problem is that SU is trying to find ways to differentiate Marantz from Denon.

Anyway, hopefully I’ll have something interesting to say when I get a chance to write this all up.

 

[Sal1950]

I do have an opinion on this but I have to save something for the article, right!

No worries, protect your bread and butter, that's only natural and reasonable. Besides I enjoy reading the goings-on at Audioholics, one of a very small handful of straight shooters in this industry.

 

[peng]

I can actually measure it on my own. The performance of these are poor enough to even be measured completely by the Quantum Asylum QA401. However I also have the QA480 oscillator and notch filter, so I can measure it, no matter how clean it is.

However, I am also re-locating to Sarasota and will be driving distance to Gene and can measure it on the AP as well.

I've measured the AV7705 on the QA401 already. My numbers match Amir's in both single-ended and balanced. I had thought that it might be better in single-ended because of the nature of the design, but it's not. I can't post the results here yet since those are going into our video and article. As Amir already said, buy the AV7705/6 for the features. Don't buy it for the performance. I hope the AV7706 is better, but based on what I've been told, it should be identical.

Marantz seemed to have reported that the 8015 has an upgraded (or just a different version they previously used in some of their integrated amps) HDAMs and that might have resulted in better SINAD/THD+N and also much less degradation in SINAD measured when the internal amps remained connected to the pre outs. Is it possible for you (or you have to run it by Gene, and/or Marantz first) that the 7706 and 7015 did not get the same HDAM version as the ones in the 8015?

If that is the case, then it would seem a safe assumption that while the HDAMs may have other benefits such as lowering the output impedance, it might in fact add distortions, resulting in lower SINAD measured on the ASR bench. Their claims of lowering TIM/improving slew rate, imo are ill conceived because logically speaking, being an extra buffer right at the end of the signal chain can't do such a thing as the fate of those performance categories have already been determined by the upstream stages that are identical to Denon's (source: info from SMs).

 

[Pdxwayne]

This unit seems to be broken - by design. I'm currently preparing a review of the Marantz AV7701 (prepreprepredecessor of the 7705) and that one has no problems to keep THD in spec (0.008% / -82 dB) up to the maximum level of 12V rms @ XLR out and 0 dBFS. Actually THD level is always way below spec, usually around 0.002% / -92 dB or better. I don't want to cludder this review with graphs from another unit so I hide them behind a spoiler.

Spoiler

Input: Coax SPDIF 1 kHz 192 kHz / 24 bit
Output: XLR, with 12 Vrms at Volume = 91.5 and 0 dBFS input

1. THD+N measured versus volume with 0 dBFS input

As one can see THD gets better with volume and not worse.

View attachment 49298

2.THD+N measured versus dBFS at Volume 91

One can see that the sweet spot of the DAC is -4 to -5 dBFS. And we see a THD hump between -25 dBFS and -5 dBFS.

View attachment 49299

Somehow Marantz has been able to deteriorate the output capability of the XLR outputs between the AV7701 and 7705. May rise the second hand price of my AV7701.

Do you have more measurements to share? I have av8801 and I would think it is similar to your AV7701.

I am wondering if I should replace mine with Denon 3600 since my AV8801 remote is broken. Thanks!

 

[LTig]

Do you have more measurements to share? I have av8801 and I would think it is similar to your AV7701.

I do, but the review is not finished (phono input not yet measured).

I am wondering if I should replace mine with Denon 3600 since my AV8801 remote is broken. Thanks!

Denon seems to be the better choice according to ASR measurements. It's really a pity that there's no Denon AVP w/o power amps, this could be a real champ.

 

[Martin_320]

I can't post the results here yet since those are going into our video and article..

Thanks Matthew. Looking forward to reading your forthcoming analysis on Audioholics!
By the way, I wonder if you could please include the following measurements:

• Frequency response sweeps at 96kHz & 192kHz input sample rates to see how the DAC's output section behaves at these hirez rates, and where ultrasonic images start etc.? And for these sample rates respectively, Q: how far does the FR range stay within plus/minus 1dB of a flat response?
• Does the AVP downsample music (from 96/192kHz to 48kHz) when engaging (separately) each of the following AVP DSP functions: (a) bass management crossover; (b) 2ch to Dolby Surround 5.1 upmixing; (c) manual (graphic) equalizer ?
• Can you also please run a SINAD test into the multi-ch and “CD” unbalanced analog inputs? (Then we can compare, and see how much of the distortion is coming from the digital section -- vs the analog performance.)

Thanks for your consideration.
Rgds from France,
Martin.

 

[Sal1950]

Do you have more measurements to share? I have av8801 and I would think it is similar to your AV7701.

We do have some measurements of a 7701 here if they help.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/marantz-avr-7701-dac-measurements.3485/

 

[Pdxwayne]

I do, but the review is not finished (phono input not yet measured).

Denon seems to be the better choice according to ASR measurements. It's really a pity that there's no Denon AVP w/o power amps, this could be a real champ.

Does 7701 perform better than av7705 in certain measurements? Is analog in any good? Thanks!

 

[Pdxwayne]

We do have some measurements of a 7701 here if they help.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/marantz-avr-7701-dac-measurements.3485/

Thanks! Would you say it measured better or worse than AV7705?

 

[Matthew J Poes]

Thanks Matthew. Looking forward to reading your forthcoming analysis on Audioholics!
By the way, I wonder if you could please include the following measurements:

• Frequency response sweeps at 96kHz & 192kHz input sample rates to see how the DAC's output section behaves at these hirez rates, and where ultrasonic images start etc.? And for these sample rates respectively, Q: how far does the FR range stay within plus/minus 1dB of a flat response?
• Does the AVP downsample music (from 96/192kHz to 48kHz) when engaging (separately) each of the following AVP DSP functions: (a) bass management crossover; (b) 2ch to Dolby Surround 5.1 upmixing; (c) manual (graphic) equalizer ?
• Can you also please run a SINAD test into the multi-ch and “CD” unbalanced analog inputs? (Then we can compare, and see how much of the distortion is coming from the digital section -- vs the analog performance.)

Thanks for your consideration.
Rgds from France,
Martin.

sure. The last request I can probably do today.

I believe the biggest contributor to the problem is the analog section. They use a relatively poor performing volume control and a ton of commodity grade opamps.

imaging will have to wait. I can’t measure that with Gene’s AP. Any ADC with a filter won’t measure it correctly so only an AP or similar can be used to accurately look at that.

a number of people have thought it is possible with the AKM ADC’s which have a 384khz sampling rate. It isn’t true. They aren’t true 384khz sampling. They are 192khz sampling with some digital tricks that slightly extend the bandwidth but not enough to matter. The low pass filter still alters the measurement of imaging artifacts. In part through its own filters attempt to remove aliasing artifacts. I only learned this because I asked Matt Taylor why the QA401 didn’t have a 384khz sampling and he said the sampling wasn’t real and wasn’t usable for measurement. I have an RME and it seems right. Using a run of the mill ADC with filter seems like a lousy way to measure the frequency response of a DAC or wide bandwidth piece of electronics so I will likely always use the AP for that.

 

[LTig]

Does 7701 perform better than av7705 in certain measurements?

Multitone certainly is better on the 7701. See behind the spoiler (Toslink 192 kHz/24 Bits). Both output types (RCA and XLR) are plagued by both power supply (100 Hz) and mains (50 Hz) residuals, but this may be a problem in the setup of my measuering rig.

Spoiler

Is analog in any good?

FR is flat up to 90 kHz (stereo and pure direct modes), 42 kHz (tone controls on), 22 kHz (Audissey on).
THD RCA in XLR behind the spoiler, and you'll see the power supply residuals.

Spoiler

 

[Pdxwayne]

Multitone certainly is better on the 7701. See behind the spoiler (Toslink 192 kHz/24 Bits). Both output types (RCA and XLR) are plagued by both power supply (100 Hz) and mains (50 Hz) residuals, but this may be a problem in the setup of my measuering rig.

Spoiler

View attachment 92123

View attachment 92118

FR is flat up to 90 kHz (stereo and pure direct modes), 42 kHz (tone controls on), 22 kHz (Audissey on).
THD RCA in XLR behind the spoiler, and you'll see the power supply residuals.

Spoiler

View attachment 92120

Thank you! I guess the Denon measured better, am I correct? Do you think those differences between 7701 and Denon audible?

 

[LTig]

I guess the Denon measured better, am I correct? Do you think those differences between 7701 and Denon audible?

Yes, the Denon is better. Whether the differences are audible depends on the circumstances. How calm is your room (noise level), how loud do you want to play (max SPL), how sensitive are the speakers (with horn speakers you may hear hiss/hum). In a typical home situation probably not, in a dedicated home theater maybe yes.

 

[NTomokawa]

Have all the designers left and this is some farmed out design to China/Taiwan?

Possibly. That, or their parent company only cares about profits.

Marantz is owned by Sound United LLC, which in turn is owned by Charlesbank Capital Partners LLC, an equity firm. Sound United LLC also owns Denon, Polk Audio, Marantz, Definitive Technology, HEOS, Classé, and Boston Acoustics, according to Forbes.

But at least this thing has a CSA mark.

 

[mhardy6647]

Possibly. That, or their parent company only cares about profits.

Marantz is owned by Sound United LLC, which in turn is owned by Charlesbank Capital Partners LLC, an equity firm. Sound United LLC also owns Denon, Polk Audio, Marantz, Definitive Technology, HEOS, Classé, and Boston Acoustics, according to Forbes.

But at least this thing has a CSA mark.

No comment on the content of your post @NTomokawa -- but I do like your avatar! (or should I say that we do...)

DSC_7465 (2) by Mark Hardy, on Flickr

 

[Sal1950]

how sensitive are the speakers (with horn speakers you may hear hiss/hum).

You don't. I discussed this on a different thread but with my 7701 & 7703 into Adcom GFA-545 Mk 2, I could stick my ear in the tweeter horn of my HSU HB1 MK2s and not hear anything. Now the same is true of my 7703/545 and JBL HDI-3600.
I guess it would be possible with my 104db efficient Klipsch La Scala's but sadly I don't have them any more.