soerenssen
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The remote of both the A1H and the AV10 are backlit.
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Marantz AV10 AV Processor Review
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Newman
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Random guessing is 50% right. Ouch.
Newman
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There are so many issues with your first sentence... and with your second sentence TBH.
Just for starters, that number (64%) is for headphones, not speakers. But even if we were discussing headphones, that statement would be an incredibly inappropriate misuse of the number. I have previously deconstructed it, and reconstructed a correct interpretation of the data, here.
You really should try to 'unremember' that statement, and your interpretation, and never repeat it!
Of all the remotes I own or have owned, the very best IMO is the one I get from XfinityThe remote of both the A1H and the AV10 are backlit.
Setting the back light of the remote control unit AVR-A1H
manuals.denon.com
Setting the back light of the remote control unit AV 10
manuals.marantz.com
for my cable box/dvr. It's backlit thru clear letters in the middle of all the black buttons.
When you pick it up the lighting comes on and you can clearly read the words/symbls
on all the buttons. A really great system.
This seems like an odd way to do this. Why not use something with pre-amp outputs, record the signal at the pre-amp outputs with a beyond human competent adc, and then match the recorded files with spectral analysis? That removes your room/speaker/amp chain, and gets you to just the at-the-jack-brass-tacks outputs for more ideal comparison. After all, if there's nothing different going to your amps, there's nothing different in your room.Absolutely agree with all of that post (funny, I thought I saw it earlier?)
Distinguishing between two good amplifiers operating between noise and clipping is very much more difficult blind than sighted, but it IS POSSIBLE
Equally, sighted tests are very much less reliable than blind, but they're NOT ALWAYS wrong. Long story coming.
Nick
Edit: The long story. I used to be a very active member of AVForums, swapped gear with friends, and did lots of blind group listening tests at local dealers. On 26 Jan 2009 ( a day I remember well) I got my hands on a BDP and AVP that could both do HD codec decoding. I'd become quite obsessed with jitter at the time, and expected that processor decoding would sound better than player decoding due to the different digital audio replay architecture (how the audio clock is regenerated in the processor). Conventional wisdom was that they should sound the same because bits were bits, but I thought I knew better than everyone else, and several users had already claimed to hear a (sighted) improvement with processor decoding. I wanted to prove that I understood what made HiFi tick, and also to prove that I had golden ears. I could hardly wait to listen and confirm my convictions for myself. The anticipation had built up for some time, and I wonder if you can guess what happened next? I played a Bluray with a particularly musical HD audio soundtrack with the player configured to perform the decoding and output LPCM audio, and listened as closely as I could several times. Then I set the player to output bitstream, and listened with great expectation. Hard as I tried, I could hardly hear the slightest difference between them. I posted on AVF that "the difference was so small that I doubt I could tell the difference reliably". This was hugely disappointing and embarrassing, having firmly planted myself in the "processor decoding is better" camp. However, I owned up to the fact that I was wrong all along, or else I had cloth ears. After covering myself in shame (you can see this was a big deal to me) I went back to the lounge and looked at the Bluray case again. I hadn't realised that the BD soundtrack wasn't lossless compressed Dolby TrueHD or DTS-MA after all, but was in fact an LPCM soundtrack. Therefore the player had been outputting LPCM in both cases, so the audio replay architecture and hence the sound quality would have been the same. But I didn't figure this out until afterwards. During the comparison I thought I had been listening to two things that should have been technically and audibly different, so expectation bias was running riot. I knew what I was going to hear beforehand, but I didn't. Subsequently I played a different disc with a TrueHD soundtrack, and processor decoding sounded better after all, and I was happy again. The point is that my comparison was not compromised by being sighted or biased, and where there was in fact no difference at all, that was what I heard. I can't speak for everyone else, but I think I did prove to myself that I don't imagine what I hear. Not everyone gets this, but my hopes are up with an ASR audience.
(The player was a Denon 3800 and the processor was an Onkyo SC886, and other equipment combinations may have given a different result.)
Nic
Price list for new Onkyo PR-SC886
Right, some impressions. There's a great deal to say, and I won't be able to do it all at once. I've had the golden opportunity to answer a lot of questions, many of which relate to the Denon DVD 3800BD. For the purpose of this thread, though, I'll just consider it as a good HD MC audio...www.avforums.com
There was a great post of this done out there on the early (2000's) internet (I think it was the doom9 forum), which showed over and over again a perfect match from 640kbps to trueHD. Sadly I've never been able to find it again.
You are comparing a receiver vs a processor!
Arcam gave up on home theater. I don't think they could get 1 Arcam AV41 to work. Arcam is now focused on competing with 2 channel separates and integrated and overpriced streamers. Audio Lab will blow them away. The AV10 is its own competition. It is not an exotic audiophile entrant. It exceeds the quality in engineering of the AVM90. Not sure if it sounds better. I think the AV10 can masquerade as a 2 x channel separate pre amp with high quality 2 channel audiophile equipment.
Not at all a lot of people are looking for AV10 quality like the copper thick beams in something cheaper than a AV10. I personally will only and ever use a processor with XLRs. That is just me. Monolith HTP1 8k, tonewinner, whatever.
I keep thinking the next generation Emotiva reference differential home theater processor with 8k and web UI will be the benchmark in the future. Yeah there will be bugs. But it will be the 4,9999.99 processor that will go rounds with a AV10 and AVM90.
Someday Emotiva, SVS and Shit audio should just merge as the strongest enthusiast United States brand.
It is interesting that the Arcam Radia line doesn’t include any AV products. Harman still needs budget electronics to drive the JBL Synthesis line of speakers so unless they make the Trinnov the entry level, they need to invest in Arcam.
The alternative is rebadging the Monolith HTP-1. JBL Synthesis had amps made by ATI in the past, so maybe a collaboration with Monolith isn’t as crazy as it seems.
When Marantz puts its engineering resources behind a project, it’s impressive. I loved my PM-10 which was the best implementation at HypeX NC500 generation products.
I would like to see how Emotiva’s latest DAC measures. There is something to be said about the collaboration between the three. Schiit still values US manufacturing but there could be a lot of synergy for sure.
At some point, Monolith might end up being its own spinoff brand. Virtually every product they have released has been a bargain in its price point.
It would be nice to see a few more players in the mid price AV pre/pro line. Manufacturers are now learning there is some marketing value in providing great measuring performance products and things have moved forward sugnificantly over the last five years.
I tip my hat to Marantz for the operation of the 2 pre/pros I've owned (7701 & 7703). What they've lacked in measured performance they almost made up for in bug-free, brick reliable operation. An area many others were pulling their hair out over in the same time frames. Good Job Marantz.
Interesting yes, but over the years when following the market of their AV products, the bugs, and their customer service, I was thrilled I had stuck with Marantz. It would take some serious changes there over time for me to consider one of their AV/s offerings. OTOH my Emo DC-1 DAC, Head Amp, & minimal preamp, has provided 100% reliable and top sonic performance for close to 10 years now. They do know how to get it done when they want to.
A point of difference and a point of similarity.
Difference: The appallingly treated sub-postmasters had evidence that was ignored. They did not proceed on the basis of a belief.
Similarity: A belief in the infallibility of an institution, the desire to believe something to be true (that Horizon was error-free) and the blind acceptance of received wisdom without reference to objective evidence led to a false equating of perception (and deliberate untruths) as fact. In parallel, the Post Office had objective evidence that they concealed.
The lesson (other than never to put institutions over people and not to be assholes) is our brains are readily persuaded by all sorts of stuff and none of us can counter that with confidence, unless we have reference to an independent objective source.
For non-UK folk, the referenced story is as remarkable as it is tragic. Hard to believe this could happen in a developed economy, but it did. Well worth watching the recently-aired ITV drama if you can get access.
Sorry for going OT.
Vacceo
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Perhaps Primare could become a competing manufacturer. I'm skeptic, though, as they seem to be taking forever to release their AVP version of their latest AVR.
On the other hand, Dirac support is quite limited on their current AVR, without DLBC and no ART support on sight.
Agree
That provides the one, and only one, good thing about xfinity
That's your experience I guess.
I'm quite pleased with Xfinity and wouldn't consider switching to any other provider.
SoundVideo
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Newman. Thanks for the primer (I read your link).There are so many issues with your first sentence... and with your second sentence TBH.
Just for starters, that number (64%) is for headphones, not speakers. But even if we were discussing headphones, that statement would be an incredibly inappropriate misuse of the number. I have previously deconstructed it, and reconstructed a correct interpretation of the data, here.
You really should try to 'unremember' that statement, and your interpretation, and never repeat it!
You were spot on about bass lovers NOT being considered to prefer the Harman Curve. Your statement that read "And even in the bass it’s the same curve" resonated with me. I compared the +3dB Harman Curve to the +6dB (by a click of a button) using Dirac. My ears preferred the +6dB setting. Several years ago, I dropped some speakers off to get some Spinorama's and was talking to Kevin V about subjective preferences. He mentioned speaker dispersion patterns are highly subjective. In the blind, I preferred the KEF monitors (ABX test) over the Revels. But I am not as big of a fan of KEF's boxy look. Though, I'm digging the KEFR11's gold painted drivers. Those were dropped off yesterday and I'm ready to listen after my wife wakes up.
SoundVideo
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I was invited to be one of 6 dealers who are on their "dealer board." As in, what do dealers want (by way of the consumers want). They picked a group that represented different channels. In those meetings, they picked larger custom dealers, a BB rep, I cater to very technical customer base and I have a high volume, and there was a major online retailer present as well.
No, they haven't "given up on home theater." Rather, they are going through and updating their product series.
Regarding the loudspeaker curve, please see this discussion regarding the significant variance in the data that was averaged.
Alternative perspective on the Harman loudspeaker preference curve.
Which of these three curves is considered to be the most objectively accurate? Short answer: none. Longer answer: they were subjectively derived, and there was a high degree of variance overall (I don't have sufficient data, but if I'm correct about the three female listeners, then they were...
www.audiosciencereview.com
SoundVideo
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Brands have learned that it's really easy to lose $$ on prepros. It's almost automatic to assume it's going to happen. The list of former prepro vendors is endless. The ones that are still standing often rebrand another source. I have a good idea of sales volumes. I see serial numbers. I've been to Marantz in Japan, Emotiva in TN, I've been in Peter Lyngdorf's home in Denmark, etc. Brands make prepros to sell matching amps. They often lose $ on the prepro. Assume they do!
It's one thing to design the hardware. The devil is in the details. And that's the software. To start paying for that NRE, brands pre-release. If they don't, they will have to redesign the hardware again when the next format comes along. I predict Monoprice had a business lesson with their prepro too. Surely, Emotiva did. The stress for Dan was off the charts.
Marantz has a lot of engineering horsepower. The boutique brands have 1/20th of their engineering bandwidth. Marantz and Denon have economies of scale. The others don't. So, your 77xx series prepro was solid because of the rest of the product line. The home theater prepro business is shrinking by way of Sonos and sound bars. If you see a new brew coming on the market, expect it to be a buggy mess. Because the laws of physics are at play because there are only 24 hours in a day. There isn't enough money/volume in prepros to justify more designs. I'm 100% confident in that statement. If someone hasn't learned that business lesson yet, they might jump in. That's the unfortunate reality.
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Hopefully you are just as pleased with the recent breach and loss of customer specific personal data.
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PJ 1
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Agreed. I bought a used 8805 and although it was tested before Amir became more accepting of lower measurements and was good. My personal experience is that it was GREAT! Dead reliable, ZERO glitches like my XMC-1, and sounded very clean paired with a Monolith 8250x for a 5.2.2 Atmos system. Now you can get a used 8805a for $2000. How many non-enthusiasts are A/B Dirac with Audessey or worried about DLBC for subs they don't want seen in a living room? But I am also the used car guy and love scooping up peoples used trucks cause it's not the latest/greatest. (Looking at you Toyota Tundra guys that went twin-turbo over massive displacement!)
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