Manufacturers' Response to Speaker Reviews

[Tonygeno]

There have been several well considered speakers that Amir has reviewed that have received very lukewarm if not poor reviews (with measurements to boot). These have included Ascend, KEF and ATC to name a few. Measurements in particular appear bad. Does Amir allow the manufacturer to comment (I don't think I've seen any). And if so, why have there been no manufacturers commenting on the speaker reviews here?

 

[Sancus]

You just haven't been searching enough, they are free to comment and do so occasionally. Ascend did respond to one review on their own forum.
Kali commented on the IN-8 review and it lead to a re-review and fixed measurements.

There are also representatives of many others that post on the forum, such as Selah Audio and Genelec.

No KEF has received a particularly negative review, nor especially bad measurements, so I wouldn't have expected them to go out of their way to respond. Regardless, as you can imagine, there are a variety of reasons a manufacturer may choose not to make a statement. I'd expect most not to comment on bad reviews unless they want to contest the measurements or provide a correction. No point in adding fuel to a fire.

 

[maverickronin]

They're free to sign up and say their piece. Most just don't care to.

Neumann sent Amir a 3rd KH80 to measure and compare their own data. It was discovered that anomalies in the bass were cause by Amir's Klippel NFS being in an unheated garage.

 

[Tonygeno]

You just haven't been searching enough, they are free to comment and do so occasionally. Ascend did respond to one review on their own forum.
Kali commented on the IN-8 review and it lead to a re-review and fixed measurements.

There are also representatives of many others that post on the forum, such as Selah Audio and Genelec.

No KEF has received a particularly negative review, nor especially bad measurements, so I wouldn't have expected them to go out of their way to respond. Regardless, as you can imagine, there are a variety of reasons a manufacturer may choose not to make a statement. I'd expect most not to comment on bad reviews unless they want to contest the measurements or provide a correction. No point in adding fuel to a fire.

Ascend responding on their own forum isn't quite the same as we're here and not there. Kali needed "fixed measurements" and it appears so did Neumann due to a cold garage. Maybe the measurements need some refinement?

 

[Sancus]

Ascend responding on their own forum isn't quite the same as we're here and not there. Kali needed "fixed measurements" and it appears so did Neumann due to a cold garage. Maybe the measurements need some refinement?

I mean, you're going to have to read each of the threads to understand what went on. The measurements have been being refined for the past year. In the case of the Kali, the actual woofer was damaged.

All measurements are imperfect, even ones from famous anechoic chambers. The ones ASR provides are better than nearly every other source, and constantly being revisited and improved when issues show up. Most issues are minor, the Neumann KH-80 one caused a dip of something like 2db in bass.

 

[Tonygeno]

I mean, you're going to have to read each of the threads to understand what went on. The measurements have been being refined for the past year. In the case of the Kali, the actual woofer was damaged.

All measurements are imperfect, even ones from famous anechoic chambers. The ones ASR provides are better than nearly every other source, and constantly being revisited and improved when issues show up. Most issues are minor, the Neumann KH-80 one caused a dip of something like 2db in bass.

I get it. The main question though was why many manufacturers choose not to comment on the measurements and reviews here. Particularly those that are not very complimentary. I assume there is nothing to question/rebut or the calculus is that they would be preaching to a small crowd. What do you think?

 

[Deleted member 2944]

Whether the speaker has a cutoff panther head or a panther golf swing, it doesn't make any sense for a manufacturer to respond in a forum like this. It's a no-win situation.

Dave.

 

[shumi]

ASR is not on their radar screen. If Stereophile published a bad review, they would likely get involved.

 

[Tonygeno]

Whether the speaker has a cutoff panther head or a panther golf swing, it doesn't make any sense for a manufacturer to respond in a forum like this. It's a no-win situation.

Dave.

If a manufacturer were to take exception to a review and consider it poorly considered, it makes sense (to me) to respond unless there is a feeling that it would be a waste of time.

 

[Tonygeno]

ASR is not on their radar screen. If Stereophile published a bad review, they would likely get involved.

Well that's what I was thinking. That's probably it.

 

[Helicopter]

They're free to sign up and say their piece. Most just don't care to.

Neumann sent Amir a 3rd KH80 to measure and compare their own data. It was discovered that anomalies in the bass were cause by Amir's Klippel NFS being in an unheated garage.

The problem was the speaker being in the garage; the scanner was doing just fine... just to clarify for anyone who needs a speaker for nice normal cool environments like a Winter coastal garage.

 

[Vini darko]

Most would message amirm directly if at all. As @dreite says it's likely no win being public.

 

[Sancus]

I get it. The main question though was why many manufacturers choose not to comment on the measurements and reviews here. Particularly those that are not very complimentary. I assume there is nothing to question/rebut or the calculus is that they would be preaching to a small crowd. What do you think?

If I had to guess it would be a mix of:
1) ASR? Never heard of it. (Certainly, ASR is constantly growing and quite large, but still, there are a LOT of reviewers on the internet and the world is a big place, especially for smaller manufacturers I wouldn't blame them for being completely unaware)
2) "Yes, the measurements appear correct. No, we don't want to draw any attention to this forum/reviewer. No purpose to respond."
3) "We fundamentally disagree with a measurement-focused design philosophy but getting into an online argument about that will be bad PR."
4) "Oh, a review? There are thousands of reviews of our speakers online. Not worth our time to respond to each of them." (this is what I'd expect from places like KEF and ATC)

I'm sure there are many others. But really, there are more reasons not to engage with anything that might produce negative publicity than there are reasons to engage. From what I've seen, it's only the manufacturers that really take pride in a) measurements and b) objectivity that have made the effort to respond or create a presence on the forum. The rest don't care or have decided it's not to their benefit to engage.

 

[amirm]

These have included Ascend, KEF and ATC to name a few.

Dave from Ascend has been communicating with me back and forth via email.

In general the "brunt" of what we do here has not hit the speaker manufacturers as much as it has for electronics. The night is young as they say. I expect this to change given how popular our forum is. It also helps if customers or potential customers ask manufacturers for a response.

As usual, largest companies feel they are most immune to negative online reviews. I think they are wrong but this is how they tend to think.

 

[hardisj]

A few things I can speak to:
1) ASR is certainly on some manufacturers’ radars.
2) Some don’t see the point in stirring up a public debate as it is (paraphrasing) a no-win situation
2a) Some believe that while ASR does have great content and viewership, the viewers have often already made up their minds and trying to convince them otherwise isn’t worthwhile.
2b) Some love the objective data but have concerns the subjective feedback is a bit thrown together but being given more weight than the data (from my understanding, by the readers, not by Amir).
3) Some are simply are too busy to dedicate the time to commit responding and replying to the further discussion.

Don’t shoot the messenger. And I’m not naming names. Just know that this place isn’t a black hole. And some would be happy to chat about results but for one reason or another they don’t.

 

[pavuol]

I was thinking lately about a thread like "Manufacturers (/distributors) response to loan request for ASR (speaker) review",is there such?

 

[Kal Rubinson]

ASR is not on their radar screen. If Stereophile published a bad review, they would likely get involved.

Sometimes, not even then. Some companies realize that it is hard to dispute measurements (unless one claims the DUI is defective) and choose not to make a bigger deal of it.

 

[tvrgeek]

It could also be that speaker reviews and owner perceptions are still too far apart as the room matters so much. Sure, huge dips or bumps in the response suggesting a poor crossover, poorly chosen drivers pushing their range, or particular high distortion is valuable, all of which are identified by measurements. But not much else really is. OK, here is a review: Every B&W I have heard since about the DM2a is too bright. I bet many here won't agree and neither would B&W. My ears. So what would some graph tell me? Nada. The Paradigm Studio series were raved about by just about everyone. All kinds of charts and graphs. Super speaker for the price. Well, tweeter breakup and HD was way above what my wife could stand. Dumped them for my own.

Now very specific measurements of raw drivers can tell me a lot for my choice in my next build. CSD in particular. But that is after 40 years of building speakers and I know what I am looking for. I can look at an .frd and know what I can fix in a crossover and what I can't.

 

[Tonygeno]

It could also be that speaker reviews and owner perceptions are still too far apart as the room matters so much. Sure, huge dips or bumps in the response suggesting a poor crossover, poorly chosen drivers pushing their range, or particular high distortion is valuable, all of which are identified by measurements. But not much else really is. OK, here is a review: Every B&W I have heard since about the DM2a is too bright. I bet many here won't agree and neither would B&W. My ears. So what would some graph tell me? Nada. The Paradigm Studio series were raved about by just about everyone. All kinds of charts and graphs. Super speaker for the price. Well, tweeter breakup and HD was way above what my wife could stand. Dumped them for my own.

Now very specific measurements of raw drivers can tell me a lot for my choice in my next build. CSD in particular. But that is after 40 years of building speakers and I know what I am looking for. I can look at an .frd and know what I can fix in a crossover and what I can't.

Here are measurements of the B&W 702 S2. The measurements don't lie and they are terrible.

 

[Universal Cereal Bus]

I get it. The main question though was why many manufacturers choose not to comment on the measurements and reviews here. Particularly those that are not very complimentary. I assume there is nothing to question/rebut or the calculus is that they would be preaching to a small crowd. What do you think?

The answer is pretty obvious. They should teach this stuff in school:
When you get caught by the [measurement] police, you keep you mouth shut and let your lawyer do the talking.