Lack of high-end speaker reviews

[Matt_Holland]

Due to the nature of ASR and how it obtains products for review, it is understandable that Amir, et al don’t receive very expensive speakers for review, either from owners or manufacturers.

Therefore do we think that the ASR database of reviews is not representative enough of the loudspeaker performance landscape?

Are there some examples out there of truly exceptionally well engineered (and measuring) speakers that are in the >$100k category?

As a former employee of Meridian Audio in the UK I spent a lot of time listening to their flagship speakers at the time, the DSP8000SE (circa $100k/pair I believe). The company’s design goals were always for reproduction accuracy. Whilst not my favourite speaker of all time the 8000SE are hugely impressive and sound very lifelike.

It’s so unlikely we’ll ever see a spin of this product, we could be missing out on seeing what extreme engineering can deliver, measurement-wise. And of course, maybe they don’t measure very well.

We will never know.

 

[fpitas]

Are there some examples out there of truly exceptionally well engineered (and measuring) speakers that are in the >$100k category?

I doubt many people seriously looking at those types of speakers are interested in pages of graphs. Or the endless discussion afterwards. We did see data about Magicos, and they were very good. Unfortunately, we also have seen lots of bad examples in the Worst Measuring Speakers thread.

 

[polmuaddib]

Why so pesimistic?
Amir has reviewed a substantial number of high end products over the years. Sure, it's hard for him to obtain really expensive specimens, due to the obvious, but ASR is evolving and growing.
We now know that the high price does not always equal highest level of performance.
IMHO, ASR has become a reference in the online HiFI community and I do believe that high end audio will have to evolve in a way that will have to prove it's performance with objective data or disappear.

 

[CleanSound]

I doubt many people seriously looking at those types of speakers are interested in pages of graphs. Or the endless discussion afterwards. We did see data about Magicos, and they were very good. Unfortunately, we also have seen lots of bad examples in the Worst Measuring Speakers thread.

Link to that Magico? The one I saw was poorly measured but sounded good (if I recalled).

 

[fpitas]

Link to that Magico? The one I saw was poorly measured but sounded good (if I recalled).

I found this:

Magico S3 NFS Spinorama and comparison to Revel F228Be

I was watching this Magico factory tour video by Audiophile Junkie on youtube, and about 18 minutes in, I think they show a Klippel lazer vibrometer comparison between a Magico A5 and Revel F228Be. The Magico speaker does look quite a bit better by comparison, though it is more expensive. They...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[fpitas]

Magico A5 spinorama (CEA2034)

This is the first time I remember seeing a spin from any Magico speaker in Klippel NFS. I am glad the company is providing it to reviews, but I wish they uploaded them to their website for all models as well. Behold the flagship floorstanding speaker from their entry level A series published by...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[wwenze]

There is a lack of reviews of high end homeopathic medicine, just saying.

 

[unpluggged]

As a former employee of Meridian Audio

It explains a lot.

 

[fpitas]

Stereophile and other magazines often do reviews of "high-end" speakers with measurements. Frankly, 99% of them measure pretty bad.

 

[jhaider]

Are there some examples out there of truly exceptionally well engineered (and measuring) speakers that are in the >$100k category?…

As a former employee of Meridian Audio in the UK I spent a lot of time listening to their flagship speakers at the time, the DSP8000SE (circa $100k/pair I believe). The company’s design goals were always for reproduction accuracy. Whilst not my favourite speaker of all time the 8000SE are hugely impressive and sound very lifelike.

It’s so unlikely we’ll ever see a spin of this product, we could be missing out on seeing what extreme engineering can deliver, measurement-wise. And of course, maybe they don’t measure very well.

We will never know.

I think you’re imagining a correlation between stupid-high price and “extreme engineering” that’s not in evidence. Take that Meridian speaker. It starts off with questionable acoustic engineering - a largish midwoofer crossed to a tweeter on a flat waveguide. The acoustic loading of the drivers is basic. Underneath the marketing buzzwords the signal processing seems fairly standard, nothing more “special” than what’s in a $1000 pair of Neumann KH80, and probably many cheaper speakers as well.

The cabinet does look really cool and it has enough drivers that one can expect good dynamics. But as “extreme” engineering there’s nothing in there that compares to a HomePod, let alone the likes of Dutch & Dutch, Kii, Grimani, Gradient, B&O, Linkwitz, MBL, and so on. (Not to say those speakers are “the best” only that they are exemplars of “extreme engineering” and not just bog standard - basic in some ways, closer to SOTA in others - audio engineering in an expensive wrapper.)

 

[EdW]

I doubt many people seriously looking at those types of speakers are interested in pages of graphs. Or the endless discussion afterwards. We did see data about Magicos, and they were very good. Unfortunately, we also have seen lots of bad examples in the Worst Measuring Speakers thread.

Exotic speakers are usually produced in very limited quantities. Almost one ‘off’. So the audio R&D isn’t done as it is never going to be a good cost effective return on investment. A cabinet maker ensures it looks like a nice piece of furniture (maybe) but likely as not the sound is pretty poor.

 

[fpitas]

likely as not the sound is pretty poor

Yes, not arguing. Another frequent situation seems to be a "guru" designer works his tragic magic in the design process. But obviously there are a few good ones.

 

[CleanSound]

Magico A5 spinorama (CEA2034)

This is the first time I remember seeing a spin from any Magico speaker in Klippel NFS. I am glad the company is providing it to reviews, but I wish they uploaded them to their website for all models as well. Behold the flagship floorstanding speaker from their entry level A series published by...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Ahh, I thought it's data from ASR.

I don't believe those data on the Magico is exactly considered good compared to SOTA speakers.

 

[fpitas]

Ahh, I thought it's data from ASR.

I don't believe those data on the Magico is exactly considered good compared to SOTA speakers.

I'm just tickled when high-end speakers have a flat on-axis response.

 

[Ron Texas]

Larger speakers don't get reviewed much here as our host says they are too heavy to move around.

 

[EdW]

Yes, not arguing. Another frequent situation seems to be a "guru" designer works his tragic magic in the design process. But obviously there are a few good ones.

At more modest price points, the likes of Revel, KEF etc. evolve existing designs and iterate the new design through several tests and evaluations because they can amortise these development costs over relatively decent sales volumes

Perhaps this process is more straightforward for an active speaker with DSP and this might allow the more rapid evolution of a new design using straightforward good engineering

 

[fpitas]

At more modest price points, the likes of Revel, KEF etc. evolve existing designs and iterate the new design through several tests and evaluations because they can amortise these development costs over relatively decent sales volumes

Perhaps this process is more straightforward for an active speaker with DSP and this might allow the more rapid evolution of a new design using straightforward good engineering

Maybe. But the way the market is now, people seem massively forgiving of high-end speakers' shortcomings. Caveat emptor.

 

[Frank2]

The genelec 8361 is a good example of 'extreme engineering' and has been tested here on ASR:

Genelec 8361A Review (Powered Monitor)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Genelc 8361A studio monitor (powered active speaker). It is on kind loan from a member and costs US $4,995. The 8361A looks identical to the rest of the series except massively scaled up: It doesn't look it but it is extremely heavy. It has a...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Compared to the Meridian DSP 8000 it has a bit more amplifier power and a bit less woofer surface, at 10% of the cost. You could easily compensate the "lack of" woofer surface with a sub if you wish and still stay well below the price of the Meridians.

Another great speaker tested here is the Neumann KH420:

Neumann KH420 Review (Studio Monitor)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Neumann 3-way, active speaker (monitor). It is on loan from the company and costs US $5,195. Speaker was too heavy to lug to the loft where my main system is so you have to put up with the cell phone picture above and listening tests there. Back...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[EdW]

Maybe. But the way the market is now, people seem massively forgiving of high-end speakers' shortcomings. Caveat emptor.

This goes for 90% of all exotic hifi!
When I was looking for new speakers - no, not at $100k but expensive enough, the rather smooth consultant let it be known “we believe in speaker cables”. I refrained from any sarcasm or even an EE response as I wanted to hear the speakers but the amplifier he paired with the speakers sounded dreadful -huge amounts of IMD as was evidenced on choral music. It was of course a hugely expensive low feedback design as I later learnt when I googled it. I tactfully suggested to the consultant that this was outside my price bracket and how about demonstrating with the more reasonably priced Rotel Michi amplifier that I spotted in his demo room. Problem solved!

 

[Purité Audio]

One could argue that loudspeaker manufacturers should be measuring and publishing their own data,
Not too bad, $40k when measured, appears almost reasonable relatively.

Meridian DSP8000 digital active loudspeaker Measurements part 2

But before you jump to any conclusion about the subjective effects of this behavior, look again at fig.1: The midrange unit narrows its dispersion in the exact region where the on-axis response is a little "hot." Similarly, the tweeter's lower-octave flare occurs where the on-axis response...

www.stereophile.com

Keith