Is the entire audio industry a fraud?

[CleanSound]

Indeed this confirms the specs of 20dB at 10cm of Neumann.
But this means inaudible at 1 meter / 40 inch.
Will you ever listen closer than 1 meter?
So I guess this is not so bad and this hiss is not a real-live issue.

Yes, you are right and as I've mentioned on several occasions, it is not audible at listening distance. I point this out to demonstrate that studio monitors are not SOTA performance in electronics.

Also hissing of any kind is me pet peeve, there should be no good reason for hissing with today's technology.

 

[dimedrol]

I'd say not a fraud at all
You can buy a Toyota Corolla or buy a luxury car that costs x10 times more , and offers maybe 5% more.
It all depends on how much $$$ you have

while there's snake oil in both cars and audio but audio is miles ahead. If you go from a $25k car to a $100k one, the difference is likely to be night and day, anybody will see and feel it, it will be easily measurable using simple tools, and this is almost universal among car brands. In Audio, on the other hand, it is easy to buy a 4x more expensive product that is actually technically inferior to the cheaper one, despite the manufacturer claiming superiority. So no, audio is a snake oil mecca alongside sports nutrition and health supplements. Cars don't even come close.

 

[jools]

I'd say not a fraud at all
You can buy a Toyota Corolla or buy a luxury car that costs x10 times more , and offers maybe 5% more.
It all depends on how much $$$ you have

I think what people have a problem with is, to use your example, a 'luxury car' that costs 10 times more than the Corolla, is sold as super high performance and offers no more, or even less, than the Toyota.

 

[Descartes]

The product itself is not the "fraud" under discussion here. It's the deceptive business practices standing between the buyer and those products in audio. Where I live, there are consumer protection laws that apply to auto sales.

If those same consumer protection laws apply to audio products, I'm not aware of it.

Jim

Probably not as it is unlikely to get killed listening to distorted sound unless it plays at 150db

 

[Descartes]

….. audio is a snake oil mecca alongside sports nutrition and health supplements!

Very true unfortunately!

 

[egellings]

while there's snake oil in both cars and audio but audio is miles ahead. If you go from a $25k car to a $100k one, the difference is likely to be night and day, anybody will see and feel it, it will be easily measurable using simple tools, and this is almost universal among car brands. In Audio, on the other hand, it is easy to buy a 4x more expensive product that is actually technically inferior to the cheaper one, despite the manufacturer claiming superiority. So no, audio is a snake oil mecca alongside sports nutrition and health supplements. Cars don't even come close.

Yes. A car has to perform; an audio cable, not so much. Just goop on the BS to an audio cable. The more of it that sticks, the more you can charge for it.

 

[Cbdb2]

A lot of pro audio equipment will publish MTBF, many studio monitor, if not all, don't use MDF or HDF for the cabinet, I believe Genelec uses aluminum, while others uses some form of hard/durable plastic. This is for durability reasons as many times these studio monitors gets transported to job sites. Another example is that my Neumann has 1.5 hours of inactivity before it goes on standby mode. 1.5 hours a day adds up, but it's designed for it.

In terms of performance, perhaps I need to specify, the speaker design performs superbly, but the electronics aren't stellar, though durable and reliable, you can see that in pro audio specs on amps. And even with active monitors, they will specify self generated noise; there is a thread here somewhere where someone measured the hissing, none of them come close to the Kii 3.

Pro audio is designed for daily, extended period use and abuse.

EDIT: To be clear, I like my Neumann, and I am very happy with the purchase. And while there is hissing, it's inaudible from listening distance.

So your proof of inferior electronics is inaudible hissing? What pro audio amps in studios (not sound reinforcement) have inferior specs ? You think you could hear the difference ?

 

[rwortman]

There really aren't any 'undiscovered' properties of wire...

Logically this is circular. No way to prove the existence or non-existence of undiscovered properties.

 

[mhardy6647]

There really aren't any 'undiscovered' properties of wire...

Logically this is circular. No way to prove the existence or non-existence of undiscovered properties.

Heck, I'd even argue that it's contrary to the principles of science, and even of the scientific method, to say "there really aren't any 'undiscovered' properties of wire..."
Were that the case, we might still be 100% Newtonian in physics.
Just a couple of loose ends there at the end of the Nineteenth Century (e.g., the Ultraviolet Catastrophe).
Folks in my line of work felt pretty good about the Central Dogma of Molecular Biology, too... until folks stumbled on retroviruses.
... and then there are prions.

I certainly don't expect* a revolution in ahem transmission line physics. But saying there is none, full stop, seems a bit reckless.

_________________
* no one expected these blokes, either.

 

[Mart68]

_________________
* no one expected these blokes, either.
View attachment 345779

Their chief weapon was surprise.

 

[mhardy6647]

Their chief weapon was surprise.

Indeed.
And folks'll sure be surprised when if new cable physics rears its metaphorical head!

 

[Anthony101]

I've been reading through this discussion, and it's evident that we all have a shared passion for audio and music. It's great to see the diversity of opinions and experiences.

One topic that's come up is the choice between studio monitors and traditional Hi-Fi systems. It's important to acknowledge that audio has no one-size-fits-all answers, and what works best can vary from person to person.

Preferences Vary: Some members have found that studio monitors designed for accuracy suit their preferences and align with their desire for a sound close to the source. In contrast, others appreciate the unique tonal characteristics of Hi-Fi systems. It's important to respect individual preferences.

Different Purposes: Studio monitors and Hi-Fi systems serve different purposes. Studio monitors are essential tools for professionals in the recording and mastering industry, while Hi-Fi systems are designed to provide an enjoyable listening experience.

Budget and Priorities: Cost-effectiveness varies, and some may choose to invest in high-quality Hi-Fi setups, while others may prioritise budget considerations.

IMO, the right choice depends on your taste, budget, listening environment, and intended use. What matters most is that we all love music and audio in various forms.

 

[BobbyTimmons]

I think what people have a problem with is, to use your example, a 'luxury car' that costs 10 times more than the Corolla, is sold as super high performance and offers no more, or even less, than the Toyota.

Most luxury cars are worse than a Toyota if you are just looking at their engineering.

 

[Hayabusa]

Yes, you are right and as I've mentioned on several occasions, it is not audible at listening distance. I point this out to demonstrate that studio monitors are not SOTA performance in electronics.

Also hissing of any kind is me pet peeve, there should be no good reason for hissing with today's technology.

With a speaker that can do >112 db @ 1m this means the SNR of their electronics is also at least 112dB, could still be SOTA.

If you want to hear no hiss at 10cm you would need SNR >132dB
If you want to hear no hiss at 1cm you would need SNR >152dB

Looks like even SOTA would have a hard-time not hearing noise when you put your ear on the tweeter.

 

[Sal1950]

Looks like even SOTA would have a hard-time not hearing noise when you put your ear on the tweeter.

This issue of so many monitors having audible hiss is IMHO unacceptable.
I have 90db sensitive JBLs driven by 30 yo Adcom powers amps and a Denon AVR in front, I can put my ear right against the tweeter and hear nothing, nadda, zilch. I really don't understand why some of
these active monitors should any any audible hiss. The only time I had any noise was years ago running VTL tube power amps, and then mostly when the input driver tubes got old.
I don't get it, these monitors aren't cheap and should have a better SNR that this. ???

 

[Hayabusa]

This issue of so many monitors having audible hiss is IMHO unacceptable.
I have 90db sensitive JBLs driven by 30 yo Adcom powers amps and a Denon AVR in front, I can put my ear right against the tweeter and hear nothing, nadda, zilch. I really don't understand why some of
these active monitors should any any audible hiss. The only time I had any noise was years ago running VTL tube power amps, and then mostly when the input driver tubes got old.
I don't get it, these monitors aren't cheap and should have a better SNR that this. ???

JBLs with horns for highs I assume?
In that case, depending on the dimensions of your horn, there could be a big difference in perceived volume when putting you ear there compared to a dome tweeter.
I mean like 10 dB difference is possible..

 

[Sal1950]

JBLs with horns for highs I assume?

Horns, yes.
Well no, it's not PC to call them horns today, they're wave guides.

 

[dasdoing]

in a strict sense the whole system is a fraud. "whiter than white"?

 

[ivayvr]

The hiss may be caused by the proximity of the electronics to the speakers (drive units) and some kind of interference.
I am just guessing here because I doubt that at least high end brands would not address the problem if there was an easy solution...

 

[atmasphere]

Indeed.
And folks'll sure be surprised when if new cable physics rears its metaphorical head!

I keep reading that the new cable physics is Quantum. The way I figure it, if someone starts talking about quantum as relates to anything audio, its prudent to face the other direction and run as hard as you can.