Is the entire audio industry a fraud?

[Deleted member 21219]

I have stated that these Neumann KH 120 indeed have hissing, but as Newman stated I specified at what distance it's audible to my ears and that distance is very close and certainly not listening distance even at near field.

Despite hissing pisses me off regardless if it's inaudible at normal listening distance, I made this comment NOT TO DISPARAGE studio monitors, but as a simple matter of fact, like today is a cold day or today is a hot day. And as Jim has stated that is my tolerance level and may not matter to others.

This became a thing because some people got offended by me stating such fact as if I called their child ugly.

I also stated that overall I am very happy with the Neumann and I am keeping them. Which the overly sensitive people overlooked because they are too hung up with me calling their child ugly.

Let me further elaborate on these Neumann, the are pair matched, they are neutral, they have some serious clean bass, they have sufficient power for me and yes they hiss and they are indeed ugly (now this time I really did called your child ugly) but I also know that the hissing and aesthetics is not a priority with monitor speakers.

In the end, they sound impeccable and I would recommend them to anyone.

So please go buy these impeccable, ugly ass looking and hissing speakers.

Some days, people just get pissed off no matter what is said.

I guess there are individual thresholds for that, too.

Jim

 

[dimedrol]

I would only bring up hiss when talking about modern studio monitors because somehow I have this absolutely uneducated thought that by today's standards, hiss elimination is a simple task, compared to the problems already solved, such as delivering highly accurate sound. It is almost as if somehow self-noise reduction has been traditionally de-prioritized by monitor makers, settling it down so deep in their backlogs that they had stopped even factoring it into their designs. Well, time has come for that to change as more and more people use studio monitors in their hifi setups and to a lot of them it matters. I for one don't like the self-noise of my otherwise great 8030c's and I do notice it regularly without trying.

 

[jcris]

Bybee quantum purifier’s
Geez!

 

[Sal1950]

Well, time has come for that to change as more and more people use studio monitors in their hifi setups and to a lot of them it matters. I for one don't like the self-noise of my otherwise great 8030c's and I do notice it regularly without trying.

Agree and good thoughts.
I can only imagine what it sounds like in the many rooms I've seen lately using 11 and more in a
HT/Atmos Music setup when no music is playing and they are all active?

 

[rwortman]

hiss elimination is a simple task,

If it’s so simple then fix it. Low noise can be a design goal. Zero noise is impossible at normal temperatures. Every single device generates noise even when it’s turned off . More so at operating temperature. It may exist in audio, but I have yet to encounter an amplification set up that was dead silent with no input and my ear an inch from the speaker. Some were worse than others. Car amps being the worst offenders. The only noise I have heard from a “normal” >6 foot listening position at home was mains hum from old tube equipment. The noise from my LSR305’s I used to have and the Tannoys I have now is inaudible at 2 feet.

I don’t know about anyone else in this thread but I’m not angry about anything. I just pointed out that zero audible noise from 2 feet away is not a professional monitoring requirement. I don’t have the numbers but I doubt the perfectionist audio market for studio monitors is large enough for for the manufacturers to care about it much. Nothing is free. Raising the cost and price for .05% of the users is not good business. For home studio users such as myself, a bit of barely audible hiss from inches away is not a concern.

 

[Sal1950]

Each to there own, powered monitors are a simple and elegant solution.
OTOH I'm old school and will always stick to separates and being free to upgrade or change any
part of the puzzle as needed due to component failure or make improvements.
YMMV

 

[MattHooper]

Each to there own, powered monitors are a simple and elegant solution.
OTOH I'm old school and with always stick to separates and being free to upgrade or change any
part of the puzzle as needed due to component failure or make improvements.
YMMV

*old school bro fist bump*

 

[Justdafactsmaam]

It is an amazing situation where the unbelievable has become the standard. And what we do here -- identifying incredibly performant products for so little money -- the unbelievable! How could cheaper be better? It goes beyond intuition. But such is reality once proof of performance (proper measurements) were thrown out.

I think this is the Achilles heel of audio as a hobby and as an industry. Many realities are counterintuitive. The idea that we can do a side by side comparison between two things like a cable or power cord and honestly think we heard a substantial difference where no actual difference exists is extremely counterintuitive.

IMO educating audiophiles on the actual mechanics behind how we hear, process and remember sound and how that causes us to detect differences that don’t actually exist is the most important thing we can do to combat the pervasiveness of snake oil and mythology is audio.

 

[dimedrol]

I just pointed out that zero audible noise from 2 feet away is not a professional monitoring requirement.

Requirements evolve over time as technologies mature. 20 years back gigabit Internet or 16-core CPU's were not a requirement for almost anything, today they are taken for granted. All of a sudden consumers want 4k displays in their smartphones, whereas just 10 years back FullHD seemed like an overkill. Each time I notice self-noise from my Genelecs, I tell myself the mantra: it doesn't matter, it means nothing, just disregard it, it is not audible at normal listening levels etc. And it has merit - the noise is not THAT important, that is why I bought the Genelecs knowing about the noise, because the pros outweight it . But the truth of the matter is, it would be better if I didn't have to think about the noise at all.

 

[rwortman]

Requirements evolve over time as technologies mature. 20 years back gigabit Internet or 16-core CPU's were not a requirement for almost anything, today they are taken for granted. All of a sudden consumers want 4k displays in their smartphones, whereas just 10 years back FullHD seemed like an overkill. Each time I notice self-noise from my Genelecs, I tell myself the mantra: it doesn't matter, it means nothing, just disregard it, it is not audible at normal listening levels etc. And it has merit - the noise is not THAT important, that is why I bought the Genelecs knowing about the noise, because the pros outweight it . But the truth of the matter is, it would be better if I didn't have to think about the noise at all.

Is it safe to say you didn’t buy them as a tool for mixing or mastering recordings?

 

[dimedrol]

Is it safe to say you didn’t buy them as a tool for mixing or mastering recordings?

Absolutely. It is my third pair of studio monitors used as computer speakers over the last 15 years! I still have a traditional hi fi system in my living room but in time I will swap it out for some Genelec Ones.

 

[coonmanx]

 

[Spkrdctr]

I just got next semester's schedule and I'm supposed to teach quantum mechanics. I am currently editing my lecture notes to reflect the amazing contributions to the field by people like Jack Bybee and Ted Denney.

SIY, I just blew coffee all over my keyboard! You need to warn me when you are going to drop such a humorous gem. I always go into reading your posts as a serious engineering read. That came at me from left field and coffee went everywhere! You got me.....

 

[Spkrdctr]

I was wondering to quantify. And was also wondering if the capacitor alone can reduce the noise.
I had the amp, passive filter, and compression driver handy, plus my last still-functioning Topping device:
View attachment 346319

The filter is as follows:
View attachment 346335

Here is the noise as measured with the mic stuffed all the way inside of the D2 lens:

1. D2 driver disconnected from the amp
2. With the amp directly wired to the (D2 no passive)
3. With the passive network between the amp and the D2 driver (D2 with passive)
4. With only the 8.0uF filter capacitor portion of the network connected (D2 filter cap only)

View attachment 346334
Ignore everything below ~1kHz, that is environmental noise, including ongoing tree removal outside my bunker... And the ambient room noise is strongly modulated by the mic in the throat of the D2 lens.
You can see the network reduces the noise dramatically (~9dB).
The filter capacitor is doing almost all of the noise reduction. I am slightly surprised that there is almost no difference with or without the resistors.

This is extreme, I have the mic so close I think I am measuring resonances in the CD (peaks at 1.45kHz, 2.9kHz, 5.8kHz... 11.6kHz). And it's a very efficient driver. And I can barely hear the noise without the filter and while sticking my ear as close as possible to the lens surface. For me it is silent with the filter, maybe my ears can't tell any more.

The problem to me is I see no tube connectors, some cheesy resistors and no GR Research sticker on your equipment. But, you did try hard! LOL

 

[DrCWO]

Sounds horrible with most speakers, Sounds Ok in a budget system with some dsp equalization.

This is not correct.

I owed Passlabs and Krell amps in the past driving my full range horns and was happy with the Krells for some years.
After @amirm tested the NCx500 I got one from an Italien manufacturer for less than 2000€. Took the amp to a friend of mine that is a fan of AVM amps and it outperforms this. You can judge it in the first few minutes of listening. And yes wie did ABX in his home but the difference was so obvious even without it.

Next I installed it in my home driving my full range horns. I was completely disappointed as anything sounded harsh and somehow wrong.

l remembered an article from Nelson Pass playing around with full range speakers. He investigated the relationship between distortion of full rage drivers and the amplifiers output impedance (which is virtually zero with the Ncx500). Adding a series power resistor of 15Ohm healed the issue I got combining the full range driver with the NCx500.

After this I also did ABX in my home comparing the NCx500 plus resistor to my Krell 2250e. The NCx500 clearly outperforms the Krell in terms of fine resolution and transients.

So what I learned general judging that Class D is bad for most speakers is definitely wrong. If the speaker is able to sound good with an amplifier of zero impedance NCx500 will be your friend

Best DrCWO

 

[Justdafactsmaam]

This is not correct.

I owed Passlabs and Krell amps in the past driving my full range horns and was happy with the Krells for some years.
After @amirm tested the NCx500 I got one from an Italien manufacturer for less than 2000€. Took the amp to a friend of mine that is a fan of AVM amps and it outperforms this. You can judge it in the first few minutes of listening. And yes wie did ABX in his home but the difference was so obvious even without it.

Next I installed it in my home driving my full range horns. I was completely disappointed as anything sounded harsh and somehow wrong.

l remembered an article from Nelson Pass playing around with full range speakers. He investigated the relationship between distortion of full rage drivers and the amplifiers output impedance (which is virtually zero with the Ncx500). Adding a series power resistor of 15Ohm healed the issue I got combining the full range driver with the NCx500.

After this I also did ABX in my home comparing the NCx500 plus resistor to my Krell 2250e. The NCx500 clearly outperforms the Krell in terms of fine resolution and transients.

So what I learned general judging that Class D is bad for most speakers is definitely wrong.

Best DrCWO

It’s admirable that you did ABX. My concern would be the level matching. Critical in amplifier comparisons and not always easy since amplifier input sensitivity varies and not always in nice even increments. Also how the test was setup and administered matters a great deal.

Some class D amps do color the sound. So I’m not saying your observations are bogus. But there’s a lot of ways things can go wrong.

 

[restorer-john]

After this I also did ABX in my home comparing the NCx500 plus resistor to my Krell 2250e.

Let's see your ABX comparator. I'm interested.

 

[DrCWO]

It’s admirable that you did ABX. My concern would be the level matching. Critical in amplifier comparisons and not always easy since amplifier input sensitivity varies and not always in nice even increments. Also how the test was setup and administered matters a great deal.

Some class D amps do color the sound. So I’m not saying your observations are bogus. But there’s a lot of ways things can go wrong.

Sorry, I try to give a short reply as it off topic here
Here the steps I took to make the ABX as fair as possible:

• I calibrated the horns independently for each amplifier to the same target with the Acourate software. This is important as using a resistor in series to the full range speaker the rising impedance of the chassis increases sound level towards the higher frequencies.
• As the Krell has a much higher amplification than the NCx500 (26 to 11dB) I calculated a voltage divider with tree resistors and soldered it in the XLR plug I connected to the Krell. I used a Y-cable to send the same audio to both amplifiers.
• After that I did another measurement with my Earthworks measurement mic to check the volume (at the listening position for both channels) and adjusted the voltage divider so both amps produce the same volume in a range of +-0.2dB.
• For ABX I wrote a small program in node.js for a Raspbarry Pi controlling eight relays that connect the speaker cables to one of the amplifiers only. The PI and the relays were in my basement so I could not hear any click of them, same as the amplifiers. The software disconnects the speakers for 50ms before reconnecting it so I know that they got switched.
• On my iPad I was able to start ABX via the browser during playback from Roon. Each single ABX comparison was started manually and switching from A to B to X also. So I was able to repeat the track I heard after switching.
• I ran it 10 times with 15 ABX each time with different musical material.

At the end I got a correct result of 10 out of 10 correct answers for all 15 rounds

Maybe there was some issue in my setup or methodology I did not think about so I would appreciate your comment.

Best DrCWO

 

[Mnyb]

re self noise in active speakers .

lets look at passive speakers in modern design its usually the bass driver that drags the sensitivity down as we want low fs and small boxes so midrange and tweeters are actually often very sensitive . so the passive crossover has series resistors to these drivers thus most of the hiss ( and most of the amp power ) dedicated for these drivers blows of in the resistive network . and hiss is often very apearent from the treble driver

Also hifi manufacturers are thinking more about this .

My Meridian active 5.1 system no problem , my kitchen Kef LSX II no problem . They do hiss if I put my ear to them but no worse than passive designs i owned in the past .

I once tried a Velodyne sub it was horrible , sub localisation was no problem just follow the hiss and other whining noises , haven't look at the brand since then ( 20 years ago )

 

[restorer-john]

Sorry, I try to give a short reply as it off topic here
Here the steps I took to make the ABX as fair as possible:

• I calibrated the horns independently for each amplifier to the same target with the Acourate software. This is important as using a resistor in series to the full range speaker the rising impedance of the chassis increases sound level towards the higher frequencies.
• As the Krell has a much higher amplification than the NCx500 (26 to 11dB) I calculated a voltage divider with tree resistors and soldered it in the XLR plug I connected to the Krell. I used a Y-cable to send the same audio to both amplifiers.
• After that I did another measurement with my Earthworks measurement mic to check the volume (at the listening position for both channels) and adjusted the voltage divider so both amps produce the same volume in a range of +-0.2dB.
• For ABX I wrote a small program in node.js for a Raspbarry Pi controlling eight relays that connect the speaker cables to one of the amplifiers only. The PI and the relays were in my basement so I could not hear any click of them, same as the amplifiers. The software disconnects the speakers for 50ms before reconnecting it so I know that they got switched.
• On my iPad I was able to start ABX via the browser during playback from Roon. Each single ABX comparison was started manually and switching from A to B to X also. So I was able to repeat the track I heard after switching.
• I ran it 10 times with 15 ABX each time with different musical material.

At the end I got a correct result of 10 out of 10 correct answers for all 15 rounds

Maybe there was some issue in my setup or methodology I did not think about so I would appreciate your comment.

Best DrCWO

How about showing the ABX comparator unit itself, not some vague description of a ficticious device buried in your basement, and the show the unit you claim to have taken to your friend's place for the other ABX test you claimed to have completed.

I'm calling absolute bullshit on your claims.

Put up or shut up.