Audio industry is full of crap and thank god this place exists

[simplywyn]

Last post about this I promise. As an aspiring audiophile, I'm constantly wow at how amazingly dumb I am as a consumer. The latest culprit? A $200 WAudio W4800.

https://www.amazon.ca/WAudio-Noise-Power-Filter-Conditioner/dp/B08DJBRN8S

This beauty conditions the power, and makes the noise reduced! Amazing! I plugged it in, I couldn't believe my ears! Everything sounded better. Where has it been my entire life!

Bass is deeper, notes are better, the music is alive!

But my engineering brain is telling me this is all BULL ... SHIT ...

So I did a quick test, and I realized, I was comparing this W4800 to the power coming out of my UPS! Which obviously would be adding tons of noise into it (it literally has a ton of circuitry and an extra USB outlet, a load of crappy computer noise).

My UPS is power limited to 400W, which is why my computer cannot perform at max (850W power supply) and lots of problems come from that PSU (like if I plug my USB into my monitor, it turns off for some reason)

So I stripped the UPS from my entire network, and connected everything back to the wall, using a normal 15A 120V multiplug.

BLEW... MY... MIND. The music felt deeper, dynamics were increased, bass is back, sound stage was apparent, noise felt massively reduced, the background felt dark and mysterious, huge changes. My amp could draw a full 500W again without any UPS circuitry nonsense.

Then I plugged the WAudio W4800 back in, and the sound actually was a tad worse at parts, but never better.

Why do we do this to ourselves?

 

[solderdude]

This beauty conditions the power, and makes the noise reduced!

Conditioning ... no. The box itself at least is honest and only mentions it is a filter. The 'power conditioner' bit is just added buzzwords from Amazon.
Surge protection... well there is one small one across L and N but lacks the ones between L (and or N) and safety ground.
It will reduce common mode noise on mains and also reduce some differential noise.
The 'phase' LED may be useful, at least the device has a reset-able fuse. As long as it is faster than the mains fuse it might be helpful.

That is.... noise going from mains to the outlets and noise from the outlets to mains.
Is it worth € 200.- ? You can probably get one for less.

Here's the thing though... if any of the connected devices produces 'noise', and most devices these days have SMPS so do, that will still be able to go to all other connected devices.

When one does not want that you will need a device with common mode filters on each separate output and those will cost more than $ 200.-
The question would be whether or not that is even needed.

What one 'hears' is a totally different matter and generally not related to 'power conditioners' actual function but what it does to the owner's brain.

 

[scsim]

Frankly, $200 does seems a little expensive.

However, I do not think it is crap, more like an overpriced power distributor strip. The internal construction does appear very decent, at least from the photos. The wiring is very neat and appears to of sufficient gauge.

The power filter appears to be rather standard one using CMC and X/Y caps. How effective is it, I am not sure since it appears to be constructed by the manufacturer.

Below is a schurter in line filter as an example. Circuit layout is very similar.

https://docs.rs-online.com/0739/0900766b8141c387.pdf

 

[solderdude]

The box only mentions better than -10dB between 2MHz and 100MHz which I am sure can be met easily with a common mode filter like this.
It does not say how much better and -100dB of course is better than -10dB but that -100dB won't be reached
So clearly this is only an RF common mode filter and will change nothing in the audible band.

I would prefer to see the Schurter used. It will certainly have better performance.

 

[lisgotan]

I just want to share what I feel is really crap. Yes, it's not too expensive and functional. But it's just poor quality.

Below is a typical power extension strip we can buy anywhere.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Extension-Addtam-Protector-Overload-Protection/dp/B08CKDNM3F

You can see the internal construction. No individual sockets, instead they are made using stamped pieces for brass plates. Cheaper ones tends to be thin and flimsy. The cables soldered to the plates are miserable. Even though the extension is supposed to handle 240v 13A, the cables get warm to touch with just around 1500W, over 2000W gets hot.

 

[Ricardus]

As an aspiring audiophile,

Oh, please don't aspire to that!

Just build a nice system within your budget and listen to and enjoy music.

 

[donavandear]

Last post about this I promise. As an aspiring audiophile, I'm constantly wow at how amazingly dumb I am as a consumer. The latest culprit? A $200 WAudio W4800.

https://www.amazon.ca/WAudio-Noise-Power-Filter-Conditioner/dp/B08DJBRN8S

This beauty conditions the power, and makes the noise reduced! Amazing! I plugged it in, I couldn't believe my ears! Everything sounded better. Where has it been my entire life!

Bass is deeper, notes are better, the music is alive!

But my engineering brain is telling me this is all BULL ... SHIT ...

So I did a quick test, and I realized, I was comparing this W4800 to the power coming out of my UPS! Which obviously would be adding tons of noise into it (it literally has a ton of circuitry and an extra USB outlet, a load of crappy computer noise).

My UPS is power limited to 400W, which is why my computer cannot perform at max (850W power supply) and lots of problems come from that PSU (like if I plug my USB into my monitor, it turns off for some reason)

So I stripped the UPS from my entire network, and connected everything back to the wall, using a normal 15A 120V multiplug.

BLEW... MY... MIND. The music felt deeper, dynamics were increased, bass is back, sound stage was apparent, noise felt massively reduced, the background felt dark and mysterious, huge changes. My amp could draw a full 500W again without any UPS circuitry nonsense.

Then I plugged the WAudio W4800 back in, and the sound actually was a tad worse at parts, but never better.

Why do we do this to ourselves?

I have that conditioning box, and I also have 4x Firman conditioners and 2x Monster conditioners and 2x PS Audio P20s 10k$ each AC units that take the power to DC then rebuild it, all that to say I bought the box because I spent more than 25k$ trying to get rid of the hum in my subs. The cheep box did it (80% anyway). I have audiophile AC cables, home run AC lines to the power lines, audiophile AC outlets. I'm a sound engineer and this problem was not going to get the best of me but for about 2 years I had no answers. That stupid little transformer in that cheep box did the trick, crazy. Yes Audiophile culture is BS I am one and I know it's true.

 

[Anton D]

The audio industry is a JD Salinger book and we are Holden Caufield.

 

[solderdude]

I have that conditioning box, and I also have 4x Furman conditioners and 2x Monster conditioners and 2x PS Audio P20s 10k$ each AC units that take the power to DC then rebuild it, all that to say I bought the box because I spent more than 25k$ trying to get rid of the hum in my subs. The cheep box did it (80% anyway). I have audiophile AC cables, home run AC lines to the power lines, audiophile AC outlets. I'm a sound engineer and this problem was not going to get the best of me but for about 2 years I had no answers. That stupid little transformer in that cheep box did the trick, crazy. Yes Audiophile culture is BS I am one and I know it's true.

It looks like you assumed this was a power supply quality problem which it never is but the audiophool press and testimonials say it is.
Well... there are some few exotic amps that may have some dependency on mains stability or have a poor internal grounding scheme allowing some mains related currents to enter the audio path in unforeseen ways but in most cases mains 'quality' should not be the issue.

It is usually a matter of ground loops (unwanted current injection into the audio path).
These are really easy to break and don't need to cost much but most people assume it must be mains quality.

 

[audio_tony]

Here's the thing though... if any of the connected devices produces 'noise', and most devices these days have SMPS so do, that will still be able to go to all other connected devices.

I can't remember the last time I saw an SMPS PSU inject noise into the mains.

If the device complies with modern EMC standards, it simply shouldn't happen.

The worst power supplies for doing this were the half wave thyristor supplies typically used in old CRT TV sets, and these have long since gone.

 

[solderdude]

I can't remember the last time I saw an SMPS PSU inject noise into the mains.

I have done a lot of EMC testing and most SMPS (and even linear power supplies) do inject noise into mains.
It is measurable.
But... as you said, this should, and mostly is, below levels that would influence other gear and have to comply to EMC rules.
Not all cheap gear actually complies though.



Some more general info about this subject.

Most audio gear is or should be immune to those harmless levels.
The thing is not all audio gear is connected directly and some SMPS have higher leakage than desirable.
Strangely enough this is so they can actually comply to EMC regulations.
Those higher leakage currents can make it into the audio path and even travel via mains back into another SMPS that also leaks.

Just plug an SMPS into mains and connect an AC Amp meter between the output and safety ground and there will be a current.
You can also do the same but with an AC Volt meter.
It is these leakage currents that cause hum in SE connections because that current (via leakage or ground) that induces very small voltage drops across the screen of the cable and that is added to the signal level. All one needs is several uV for this to become audible.
A suspect RCA connector or thin shield wiring is all that it can take.

It is kind of amazing that most SE connections are good enough so that injected currents stay below audible levels anyway.

EMC filters do not limit nor lower audio range leakage currents so are not effective in this case.

 

[audio_tony]

Just plug an SMPS into mains and connect an AC Amp meter between the output and safety ground and there will be a current.
You can also do the same but with an AC Volt meter.
It is these leakage currents that cause hum in SE connections because that current (via leakage or ground) that induces very small voltage drops across the screen of the cable and that is added to the signal level.

I agree - however this is not injecting noise directly into the mains per se - these are (as you say) leakage currents.

For example, my HP laptop power brick - if I touch the DC plug I feel a slight tingle (I know this is due to a cap connected between the HT side and -ve causing leakage) - but like I say, this is not actually injecting noise directly into the mains, but will be injecting noise via ground loops etc.

Most of these tiny leakage currents are readily dealt with by careful design.

However manufacturers of power conditioners etc. would have audiophiles believe that the noise injected is a major, major issue, which is isn't.

 

[solderdude]

The noise injected into mains isn't an issue.
That said, when you use a filter and after the filter you have several SMPS the noise of each SMPS will see a high impedance (the filter) and the noise there is higher.
That noise is HF and can easily pass through regular transformers and enter in audio gear. That is HF and doe not have to be audible but could interfere with clocks etc.

The fact that noise of various audio stuff with a filter between mains and the gear is what my remark was about.
That filter will lower common mode noise (and some differential mode noise) from the mains reaching audio gear and will lower common mode noise from SMPS to go onto the mains but the noise behind that common mode filter will be higher.

Filters should be used between a single device and mains and not between mains and a bunch of devices. Yet many people think mains quality is the culprit of all kinds of things they hear but this is really not the case and think all they need to do is put an (extra) filter between their audio gear and mains and it is magically cleaned.
In reality the mains behind the filter would be worse than when the filter would not be used (because of its high impedance for HF).

Of course this has little to nothing to do with leakage (which is often the culprit) but common mode crap (noise) can also make it into the audio path and could become audible but not via a direct path.

Its actually surprising that most audio gear works flawlessly from mains and that so little 'problems' like hum exist. Only in certain cases this becomes a problem. Those problem cases make it into threads about hum and other nasties because it bothers them and find it difficult to put their finger on it.
And it usually IS very hard to find out where it comes from and what might work to get rid of it.

Many people believe throwing lots of money at mains conditioning or special power supplies is the way to go, which it mostly isn't.

 

[Waxx]

most if not all hum and other noise problems are solved with a simple EMI/RFI filter that costs at most 10€/$ to buy, and proper grounding of your total system. That is at least my experience. And when the power is really bad, a simple real online UPS (the type that always draw current from the battery) is the best solution. And those can be bought for a few hundreds, not a few thousands like those audiophile power conditioners that do little.