Is the entire audio industry a fraud?

[rwortman]

What? Why would professionals not care about hiss? They usually will be seated closer than home listeners. I'm sure it is a cost saving measure and good enough, but barely. In more expensive monitors it really is unforgivable or at least quite unnecessary.

People complaining about hiss in their monitors are listening from a foot or two away. Someone mixing for a living is going to have several different monitors and is most likely farther away. He/she is not sipping a beverage and listening for enjoyment, getting annoyed when there is a tiny bit of hiss between tracks when you stick your head up next to the speaker. It simply doesn’t matter to the job at hand.

 

[gino1961]

To have solved the line preamplifier and DAC selection with just 400USD is a very good thing
Congratulations
I spent just a little more for an old Electrocompaniet EC 4.5 pre and a Hegel HD10 DAC both used and they sound quite decent

 

[CleanSound]

Studio monitors are tools for professionals who don't care about hiss, they weren't designed for home audio users to take home and use as a hi-fi system. Pleasing hi-fi consumers is not part of their design specification, they aren't their expected users.

Understood and agree.

 

[Multicore]

People complaining about hiss in their monitors are listening from a foot or two away. Someone mixing for a living is going to have several different monitors and is most likely farther away. He/she is not sipping a beverage and listening for enjoyment, getting annoyed when there is a tiny bit of hiss between tracks when you stick your head up next to the speaker. It simply doesn’t matter to the job at hand.

I think that depends how much hiss.

I remember when we made the second album at Deadverse, Oktopus tracked and mixed the album for us in two days. I think he slept on the couch in the console room. He was in that chair in that room for a long time and he was not actually doing mixing most of that time. I think it would be pretty annoying if he had to listen to hiss all the time he was waiting for us to do the next thing.

 

[Deleted member 21219]

People are people, and professionals are no different from other people. For some, hiss is no big thing. For others, it's annoying. For a few, it's quite distracting. Everyone has a threshold beyond which they feel they need to take action, and that threshold varies.

Jim

 

[CleanSound]

People are people, and professionals are no different from other people. For some, hiss is no big thing. For others, it's annoying. For a few, it's quite distracting. Everyone has a threshold beyond which they feel they need to take action, and that threshold varies.

Jim

And some take offense if you state the fact that these studio monitor have hissing as if you are calling their child ugly. We have all become a bunch of overly sensitive sissies.

 

[MAB]

And some take offense if you state the fact that these studio monitor have hissing as if you are calling their child ugly. We have all become a bunch of overly sensitive sissies.

I think we are missing the point.
Active speakers tend to hiss and produce self-noise. Not because they are studio monitors, because they are active. And not because of some tolerance to hiss that occurs in the studio vs. the home environment. Perhaps there is more OCD in the home environment than studio, but maybe not...

A lot of pro audio equipment will publish MTBF, many studio monitor, if not all, don't use MDF or HDF for the cabinet, I believe Genelec uses aluminum, while others uses some form of hard/durable plastic. This is for durability reasons as many times these studio monitors gets transported to job sites. Another example is that my Neumann has 1.5 hours of inactivity before it goes on standby mode. 1.5 hours a day adds up, but it's designed for it.

In terms of performance, perhaps I need to specify, the speaker design performs superbly, but the electronics aren't stellar, though durable and reliable, you can see that in pro audio specs on amps. And even with active monitors, they will specify self generated noise; there is a thread here somewhere where someone measured the hissing, none of them come close to the Kii 3.

Pro audio is designed for daily, extended period use and abuse.

EDIT: To be clear, I like my Neumann, and I am very happy with the purchase. And while there is hissing, it's inaudible from listening distance.

I don't think it is "inferior electronics". It's amplifiers wired directly to drivers. Passive speakers have crossovers which reduces the hiss. I have an active system with compression drivers, which use a capacitor and resistive pad to eliminate the hiss. Without the passives, I can hear hiss even with a PuriFi amp and RME DAC.

 

[CleanSound]

I have an active system with compression drivers, which use a capacitor and resistive pad to eliminate the hiss. Without the passives, I can hear hiss even with a PuriFi amp and RME DAC.

That's very interesting. I can only assume you actually done this experiment.

 

[MAB]

That's very interesting. I can only assume you actually done this experiment.

Yes, exactly as I said:

"Without the passives, I can hear hiss even with a PuriFi amp and RME DAC."

I'm not sure if me hearing hiss with and without a passive network is an experiment, rather experience.
I have Genelec Ones as well. While they have a small amount of hiss, it really doesn't bother me and is inaudible outside of nearfield.

 

[MAB]

That's very interesting. I can only assume you actually done this experiment.

I was wondering to quantify. And was also wondering if the capacitor alone can reduce the noise.
I had the amp, passive filter, and compression driver handy, plus my last still-functioning Topping device:

The filter is as follows:

Here is the noise as measured with the mic stuffed all the way inside of the D2 lens:

1. D2 driver disconnected from the amp
2. With the amp directly wired to the (D2 no passive)
3. With the passive network between the amp and the D2 driver (D2 with passive)
4. With only the 8.0uF filter capacitor portion of the network connected (D2 filter cap only)

Ignore everything below ~1kHz, that is environmental noise, including ongoing tree removal outside my bunker... And the ambient room noise is strongly modulated by the mic in the throat of the D2 lens.
You can see the network reduces the noise dramatically (~9dB).
The filter capacitor is doing almost all of the noise reduction. I am slightly surprised that there is almost no difference with or without the resistors.

This is extreme, I have the mic so close I think I am measuring resonances in the CD (peaks at 1.45kHz, 2.9kHz, 5.8kHz... 11.6kHz). And it's a very efficient driver. And I can barely hear the noise without the filter and while sticking my ear as close as possible to the lens surface. For me it is silent with the filter, maybe my ears can't tell any more.

 

[CleanSound]

I was wondering to quantify. And was also wondering if the capacitor alone can reduce the noise.
I had the amp, passive filter, and compression driver handy, plus my last still-functioning Topping device:
View attachment 346319

The filter is as follows:
View attachment 346335

Here is the noise as measured with the mic stuffed all the way inside of the D2 lens:

1. D2 driver disconnected from the amp
2. With the amp directly wired to the (D2 no passive)
3. With the passive network between the amp and the D2 driver (D2 with passive)
4. With only the 8.0uF filter capacitor portion of the network connected (D2 filter cap only)

View attachment 346334
Ignore everything below ~1kHz, that is environmental noise, including ongoing tree removal outside my bunker... And the ambient room noise is strongly modulated by the mic in the throat of the D2 lens.
You can see the network reduces the noise dramatically (~9dB).
The filter capacitor is doing almost all of the noise reduction. I am slightly surprised that there is almost no difference with or without the resistors.

This is extreme, I have the mic so close I think I am measuring resonances in the CD (peaks at 1.45kHz, 2.9kHz, 5.8kHz... 11.6kHz). And it's a very efficient driver. And I can barely hear the noise without the filter and while sticking my ear as close as possible to the lens surface. For me it is silent with the filter, maybe my ears can't tell any more.

Excellent experiment, well done @MAB.

Now my next question is (question of curiosity, I'm not asking you to conduct another experiment), how low of SNR does one need to hear no hissing without a passive crossover? And are amp technologies at that point?

 

[Newman]

People are people, and professionals are no different from other people. For some, hiss is no big thing. For others, it's annoying. For a few, it's quite distracting. Everyone has a threshold beyond which they feel they need to take action, and that threshold varies.

Jim

Sure but all this talk of hiss started 3 pages ago on post #1186 when @CleanSound said his KH120 has hiss that he can hear with his ear close to the tweeter 0.1m away but not from 0.3m away, and definitely not from any sane listening distance.

Most of what ensued, including your post above, was straw man, as if he said he can hear it from the listening position.

 

[MAB]

Excellent experiment, well done @MAB.

Now my next question is (question of curiosity, I'm not asking you to conduct another experiment), how low of SNR does one need to hear no hissing without a passive crossover? And are amp technologies at that point?

I am not that OCD, and we don't even have to (see below)!
Also, your question is a bit underspecified.

With a driver that is in the upper 99th percentile for sensitivity, and an amp that is in the upper 99th for low noise performance, I can only hear with my ear stuffed unrealistically close, hence don't-care.
With a passive network I can drop that by 9dB to double-don't-care territory.

So if you had an amp that is 10dB or so noisier we would go from double-don't-care to don't-care.
But if you had a tweeter that is 10 dB less sensitive it would put you back in the double-don't-care region. Or more likely a tweeter that is 20dB less sensitive, then triple-don't-care.
Seriously, don't put your ears so close to the tweeters. If you did that at my place I would blast the loudest track possible when you weren't expecting!
BTW, the missing specifications from your question: at the MLP, with a realistic tweeter sensitivity.

edit: accidentally posted a partial response!

 

[mhardy6647]

"Quantum" is used by people/companies who have no clue what it means but want to get on the hype bandwagon. Just like "Crypto" and "Blockchain".

ahem -- and "AI".
The aluminum siding of the 2020s.

 

[CleanSound]

If you did that at my place I would blast the loudest track possible when you weren't expecting!

And I would probably deserved it!

 

[xray]

ahem -- and "AI".
The aluminum siding of the 2020s.

View attachment 346352

Unfortunately the list of buzz words used purely for scams marketing to the uninformed is long.

 

[xray]

Unfortunately the list of buzz words used purely for scams marketing to the uninformed is long.

This was what I was referring to:

https://cointelegraph.com/news/blockchain-it-companies-rename-themselves-to-bump-up-share-price

"The craze continues as companies begin changing their name to include the word “Blockchain” and watch their share price soar"

Just crazy how easily people can be fooled.

 

[Deleted member 21219]

Sure but all this talk of hiss started 3 pages ago on post #1186 when @CleanSound said his KH120 has hiss that he can hear with his ear close to the tweeter 0.1m away but not from 0.3m away, and definitely not from any sane listening distance.

Most of what ensued, including your post above, was straw man, as if he said he can hear it from the listening position.

In particular, I had the post in mind where @CleanSound said, " Also hissing of any kind is my pet peeve, there should be no good reason for hissing with today's technology." It seemed to me that he was annoyed to a greater degree than some other people ... which was the gist of my post.

I don't believe it's a straw man argument for me to say that, "Everyone has a threshold beyond which they feel they need to take action, and that threshold varies."

Jim

 

[Ahmonge]

Reading the posts on this topic, I have turned on an old amplifier that I occasionally use to listen to music on my computer desk connected to Dali Spektor 2 speakers located about a meter away. Putting my ear to the tweeter, I hear a slight hiss, unnoticeable at normal listening distance. In my case, which I think is the case of many, the tolerable hiss threshold is the inability to hear it at normal listening distance.

 

[CleanSound]

Sure but all this talk of hiss started 3 pages ago on post #1186 when @CleanSound said his KH120 has hiss that he can hear with his ear close to the tweeter 0.1m away but not from 0.3m away, and definitely not from any sane listening distance.

Most of what ensued, including your post above, was straw man, as if he said he can hear it from the listening position.

In particular, I had the post in mind where @CleanSound said, " Also hissing of any kind is my pet peeve, there should be no good reason for hissing with today's technology." It seemed to me that he was annoyed to a greater degree than some other people ... which was the gist of my post.

I don't believe it's a straw man argument for me to say that, "Everyone has a threshold beyond which they feel they need to take action, and that threshold varies."

Jim

I have stated that these Neumann KH 120 indeed have hissing, but as Newman stated I specified at what distance it's audible to my ears and that distance is very close and certainly not listening distance even at near field.

Despite hissing pisses me off regardless if it's inaudible at normal listening distance, I made this comment NOT TO DISPARAGE studio monitors, but as a simple matter of fact, like today is a cold day or today is a hot day. And as Jim has stated that is my tolerance level and may not matter to others.

This became a thing because some people got offended by me stating such fact as if I called their child ugly.

I also stated that overall I am very happy with the Neumann and I am keeping them. Which the overly sensitive people overlooked because they are too hung up with me calling their child ugly.

Let me further elaborate on these Neumann, the are pair matched, they are neutral, they have some serious clean bass, they have sufficient power for me and yes they hiss and they are indeed ugly (now this time I really did called your child ugly) but I also know that the hissing and aesthetics is not a priority with monitor speakers.

In the end, they sound impeccable and I would recommend them to anyone.

So please go buy these impeccable, ugly ass looking and hissing speakers.