Is Marantz dead?

[Chrispy]

Why not? You would rather not use your 65-85” tv to see it all (volume, channels being used, format of the source, etc) in HD than the tiny font on the front of the AVR or processor? I don’t get it.

PS. There’s this button on your remote that says display. Use it sometime. Might amaze you.

What if not using the tv? Or worse, using ARC/eARC? I just wouldn't want the porthole in any case.

 

[Southpaw99]

Yes, better build on terms of physical, but electrically very much the same except no hdams in the 6800, SINAD will likely be within 1 to 2 dB. If use as prepro, the 6800 is a no brainer, use as avr, the C30 is worth more for sure, but for $1,000 more, some may consider it too much, it is also highly subjectve, obviously.

What if not using the tv? Or worse, using ARC/eARC? I just wouldn't want the porthole in any case.

then maybe buy an integrated amp?

Not sure why it tagged both posts. Only responding to the not using tv question.

 

[Chrispy]

then maybe buy an integrated amp?

Not sure why it tagged both posts. Only responding to the not using tv question.

I have no use for an integrated amp, tho, never have....just a receiver without a tuner and a lot of other things. There are apps for your phone/tablet that can act as displays, tho. Just easier to glance at a volume reading and sound mode. YMMV.

 

[EWL5]

But the 6800 is not the same level as the Cinema 30 - look inside each one and can you honestly say they’re the same level…obviously not.
Cinema 30
More powerful amp section/power supply/better design
Copper shielding throughout
Likely the highest sinad ever for an AVR (I know that gets many on this forum really excited)
Miles better aesthetics
Much higher quality remote
I’m willing to bet most would think it sounds better as well

Those are the main differences that come to mind.

That logic doesn't track in the rest of the world (outside US). A 200€ difference makes sense for better aesthetics.

 

[peng]

I would also remind people that numerous bench test reviews, including those by other reviewers such as Gene, JA etc., that build quality in terms of the added copper plates, extra shielding, superbly designed/implemented wiring, heatsink layouts, used or toroidal transformer (one of the biggest audiophile myths) don't always resulted (in fact in most cases) in lower distortions and/or noise at the outputs. That being said, of course I would be willing to pay for say $200 to $300 more for the Cinema 30's nice looking build quality/physical layout.

It is like I would love to pay $200 more for the likes of the Denon/Marantz AVRs if they would use the same DAC ICs used in the AV10, or better still the AVM90, or even the AVM70's DAC ICs, knowing full well that I wouldn't hear a difference just because those higher SINAD ICs are used. Also a bit like if money is no object, I would buy the best Lexus SUV that cost a lot more than the best Toyota SUV even though the Lexus may not offer me better driving experience. But that's only on money no object basis.

 

[peng]

Thanks for your help and experience. Much appreciated.

My main 2 channel system is a Quad 33/303 with Tannoy Monitor Gold, so I’m firmly in the polite BBC sound camp!

I’ll try both and see where I end up.

In case you like it with the dip better, keep in mind that the app costs $20, that's just a few coffee, and it would allow you to kill that dip at around 2 kHz and then you can put in your own that matches your speaker's actual dip better.

Audyssey's dip is based on what their assumptions, your speakers might have been designed with such a dip but it likely would not perfectly match Audyssey's dip that is centered at 2,000 Hz. To do that though, you would have to take your own measurements, or try to get it from the manufacturer, unless the speaker have been reviewed and the measurements were included. It always depends on how picky you are though, most people probably won't bother.

 

[Southpaw99]

That logic doesn't track in the rest of the world (outside US). A 200€ difference makes sense for better aesthetics. I mentioned more than

Again, it’s more than aesthetics. Look at the inside of the two and it’s clear they are not the same in terms of build quality, design, etc. You may want them to be to justify buying the denon, but they are not. I think most people who listen to music thru both would prefer the marantz. On movie content, it would be closer with the edge to the marantz in terms of channel separation, lower distortion, spaciousness. Based on everything I’ve read and reviews, that seems to be the consensus. Lastly, the avg amt of time of owning an AVR is likely around 4-5 yrs or longer. Thus, the $1k difference spread over a 5 yr period is $200 per year of owning a unit that sounds better, has better power supply which likely matters for higher speaker count, much nicer remote, and better aesthetic that you look at every day or week depending on usage. Use case will vary, and so this value difference may not be realized by everyone and that’s fine. It’s good to have options.

 

[peng]

Again, it’s more than aesthetics. Look at the inside of the two and it’s clear they are not the same in terms of build quality, design, etc. You may want them to be to justify buying the denon, but they are not.

I don't think anyone is arguing against that, and I don't know what you meant by "..want them to justify buying the Denon...." Buying decision based on aesthetics is often a subjective matter anyway, whereas based on build quality can be bother objective and subjective.

I think most people who listen to music thru both would prefer the marantz.

May be true, but probably more accurate to say most people who are more prone to bias (Placebo/expectation etc., i.e. subjective based) would, internet hearsay has great influence, but may be equally possible that most people who go with objective factors such as specs/measurements would not. I owned/still own and like them all, no sound quality issue with any of them, consistent with specs and measurements, but I won't argue with anyone who claim one sounds better (on all else being equal basis), because there is no point, one cannot know how another hear/perceive, no point engaging in never ending debates or even discussions.

On movie content, it would be closer with the edge to the marantz in terms of channel separation, lower distortion, spaciousness. Based on everything I’ve read and reviews, that seems to be the consensus. Lastly, the avg amt of time of owning an AVR is likely around 4-5 yrs or longer. Thus, the $1k difference spread over a 5 yr period is $200 per year of owning a unit that sounds better, has better power supply which likely matters for higher speaker count, much nicer remote, and better aesthetic that you look at every day or week depending on usage. Use case will vary, and so this value difference may not be realized by everyone and that’s fine. It’s good to have options.

That's mostly subjective, opinions, so fair enough, just keep in mind everyone may have their own preference, and perceiving things differently. No true of false there. As to the $1K difference, it is factual to say that it is much more easily justify in the case of the Cinema 30 vs the AVR-X6800H, but very difficult to justify that same $1K (roughly) difference between the Cinema 40 vs AVR-X480H or the C30 Vs X3800H.

 

[Southpaw99]

I don't think anyone is arguing against that, and I don't know what you meant by "..want them to justify buying the Denon...." Buying decision based on aesthetics is often a subjective matter anyway, whereas based on build quality can be bother objective and subjective.

There was a post previously that insinuated that the 30 is the same as the 6800 solely based on channels powered and that the 30 was a poor value bc of this. I agree the value proposition across the model lineups when comparing both brands is not consistent.

 

[Oddball]

I think this thread is a proof of how even above average users are confused and baffled with overlap of the D&M models as well as "honest" differentiation between them. And honest differentiation is the one on the bench plus the features, not the secret source that golden ears might have sprinkled on some units. This has always been a problem, and even worse in the past when HDAMs or other design decisions have put Marantz actually behind in the bench tests.

IMO their differentiation on design is something that barely stands on it own. Nowadays the products should be designed well and perhaps if they want to introduce "architectural line" or something to that extent it might make sense as it would be transparent what the difference is.

This whole mess is due a clean-up. Not my job to do it but I think it needs to be done. Confusing and contradicting messages and lack of transparency is not a good way to market products from the same extended family. I am sure that some efficiencies could be had from smarter 2 brand strategy (or 1 brand as I suggested earlier), so that eventually the consumer does not have to pay for all this mess with the release of the new line of AVRs.

 

[peng]

I think this thread is a proof of how even above average users are confused and baffled with overlap of the D&M models as well as "honest" differentiation between them. And honest differentiation is the one on the bench plus the features, not the secret source that golden ears might have sprinkled on some units. This has always been a problem, and even worse in the past when HDAMs or other design decisions have put Marantz actually behind in the bench tests.

IMO their differentiation on design is something that barely stands on it own. Nowadays the products should be designed well and perhaps if they want to introduce "architectural line" or something to that extent it might make sense as it would be transparent what the difference is.

This whole mess is due a clean-up. Not my job to do it but I think it needs to be done. Confusing and contradicting messages and lack of transparency is not a good way to market products from the same extended family. I am sure that some efficiencies could be had from smarter 2 brand strategy (or 1 brand as I suggested earlier), so that eventually the consumer does not have to pay for all this mess with the release of the new line of AVRs.

The funny thing is, if they actually designed for a specific sound signature that is verifiable/measurable on Amir's or Gene's test benches, then I bet a good % of the likes of ASR members will not go for such products. Many objectivists have made the point that they preferred transparency, and would rather use DSP, or analog tone controls if the want to tune for what sound signatures they like.

It is more a psychological topic, then audio science, once we get into the real warm, cool, in between kind of sq differences. I wonder why @Floyd and other audio science PhDs seemed to write a lot about speakers but nothing much on electronics such as preamps, processors and power amps.

 

[GXAlan]

There was a post previously that insinuated that the 30 is the same as the 6800 solely based on channels powered and that the 30 was a poor value bc of this. I agree the value proposition across the model lineups when comparing both brands is not consistent.

I am just making sure that you don’t mean my post.

It’s not the “same” but it is like cross shopping the Lexus ES and Toyota Camry/Avalon.

Suppose you have decided on Denon, Marantz, or Classe for HEOS and the reliable HDMI. Turns out Classe only does 2 channels, so now you are D and M.

If you have a working budget of $3500, you have to choose between the x6800h or Cinema 40.

If you have the 11.4 channel layout, and budget is flexible, you have to decide if the Cinema 30 is better than the x6800H.

I hear what you are saying (that the C30 is not a rebadge of the X6800H) but $1000 is a lot to ask for in the U.S.

 

[bigguyca]

I am just making sure that you don’t mean my post.

It’s not the “same” but it is like cross shopping the Lexus ES and Toyota Camry/Avalon.

Suppose you have decided on Denon, Marantz, or Classe for HEOS and the reliable HDMI. Turns out Classe only does 2 channels, so now you are D and M.

If you have a working budget of $3500, you have to choose between the x6800h or Cinema 40.

If you have the 11.4 channel layout, and budget is flexible, you have to decide if the Cinema 30 is better than the x6800H.

I hear what you are saying (that the C30 is not a rebadge of the X6800H) but $1000 is a lot to ask for in the U.S.

You should easily be able to find a Cinema 30 for $3,500. There are many authorized Marantz dealers on AVSForum who likely would provide that price or below. Amir, who runs this forum, is a Marantz dealer as well, although I have no idea of his pricing policy.

Clicking on some website and ordering a piece of electronics at full lists price, is in IMO, crazy. Why are so many people afraid off getting quotes?

I'm frankly always amazed at these discussions that compare full list prices as if that is some price set in stone. That is naive, and expensive.

 

[GXAlan]

You should easily be able to find a Cinema 30 for $3,500. There are many authorized Marantz dealers on AVSForum who likely would provide that price or below. Amir, who runs this forum, is a Marantz dealer as well, although I have no idea of his pricing policy.

Clicking on some website and ordering a piece of electronics at full lists price, is in IMO, crazy. Why are so many people afraid off getting quotes?

I'm frankly always amazed at these discussions that compare full list prices as if that is some price set in stone. That is naive, and expensive.

Totally, but can also get the X6800H for $2500 to $2600 just as easily as the Cinema 30 for $3500.

It's easy to work with MSRP because the discounts are very similar for Denon and Marantz. Wasn't able to easily find discounts on Classe.

 

[peng]

Totally, but can also get the X6800H for $2500 to $2600 just as easily as the Cinema 30 for $3500.

It's easy to work with MSRP because the discounts are very similar for Denon and Marantz. Wasn't able to easily find discounts on Classe.

Agreed, would also like to to add that if street prices of the Cinema 30 fore $3,500, or AVR-X6800H for $2,500, they are among the best value, very competitive with Onkyo/Pioneer's that typically are more value oriented.

 

[bigguyca]

My preference would be for them to eventually consolidate their marketing teams too, and eventually settle into something like the following strategy:

a) Continue to go with both brands, so people have choices on the style and physical features.
b) Re-introduce Denon AVP, could go with a lower priced model based on the AVR-X6800H.

That way, people can pick their pick based on their personal preference based on styles, physical features only, without having to worry about which "sound signature" they may or may not prefer, and to be brutally truthful, avoid using misleading marketing hype, or some may feel those borderline on perpetuating myths even "lies".

It will (imo) be a win win, as D+M/Masimo could lower their cost too, when they don't have to keep putting in the useless HDAMs, while implementing the two filter options for both D and M lines. Further consolidations naturally also mean more potential for cost reduction.

You are getting into Pollyana territory.

Why would D&M be essentially the only company in the world to market products without misleading marketing hype? Do you believe all the other products you buy are sold strictly based on facts and measurements against standards?

 

[EWL5]

I hear what you are saying (that the C30 is not a rebadge of the X6800H) but $1000 is a lot to ask for in the U.S.

If by "not a rebadge" you mean the the addition of questionable HDAMs that have been proven to not do anything by the electrical engineers on Audio SCIENCE Review, then I've got a Lexicon Blu-ray player I'd like to sell you:

Lexicon BD-30 Blu-ray Player (Oppo BDP-83 Clone) Review

We discovered the Lexicon BD-30 is an Oppo BDP-83 Blu-ray Player with a $3k premium. We prove this with pictures, measurements and an official response from THX. Lexicon no longer sells this product.

www.audioholics.com

I'm frankly always amazed at these discussions that compare full list prices as if that is some price set in stone. That is naive, and expensive.

Full retail price is all you have to compare apples to apples and shouldn't change when talking various retailers. If you don't want these comparisons, don't set ridiculous prices not shared by the rest of the world! Besides, I'm sure there are a number of members who would consider it a badge of honor to pay full retail on a Marantz unit!

 

[steveoat87]

Totally, but can also get the X6800H for $2500 to $2600 just as easily as the Cinema 30 for $3500.

It's easy to work with MSRP because the discounts are very similar for Denon and Marantz. Wasn't able to easily find discounts on Classe.

Where did you find these prices.. Outside of the brief sale of the 6800 on Amazon, am only seeing list prices on the internet.

 

[Southpaw99]

You should easily be able to find a Cinema 30 for $3,500. There are many authorized Marantz dealers on AVSForum who likely would provide that price or below. Amir, who runs this forum, is a Marantz dealer as well, although I have no idea of his pricing policy.

Clicking on some website and ordering a piece of electronics at full lists price, is in IMO, crazy. Why are so many people afraid off getting quotes?

I'm frankly always amazed at these discussions that compare full list prices as if that is some price set in stone. That is naive, and expensive.

I’m amazed as well. I haven’t paid MSRP for a new AVR in over 25yrs. You can definitely get the cinema 30 for $3500 or lower.

 

[restorer-john]

As I mentioned many times before, the HDAM sound effects are bs

They've been absolute BS since day one. Basically they built a JFET discrete opamp the first time around, covered it in a little copper can on the PCB and called it an "HDAM" and the legend was born. Started in CD players and many models performed worse with the HDAM than the cheaper models that simply put a link on the PCB and used the normal DIP IC.

Companies have been potting/sealing/canning gain circuits since the 1960s and calling them for the magical properties which there are none. Most of them gave trouble- look at ARC, Mark Levinson, Sanken, Pioneer, Sony, Yamaha, PS Audio even had some (gain cell?) even Topping- they all fail, become obsolete or just don't work as well as discrete, matched off-the-shelf components.

Marantz doubled and tripled down on the damn things- filling up the fresh air left in the AVR chassis with a pile of HDAMs when they pulled out the power amps to make a "dedicated" AVR processor. LOL.