Is Marantz dead?

[peng]

I don't recall implying that they did. In fact, this is the first time I've heard of "HDAM".

I knew that you didn't. Also, since you mentioned how they looked alike (vs Denon's) inside, I would add that without the HDAMs, the only difference in circuity and parts used would be none other than the DAC filters, that the NR series most likely (based on ASR measurements) also use the slow roll off filter. So extremely discerning ears would potentially hear a difference between the NR series and the Denon AVRs.

 

[beadlesabout]

One caveat, and it may be more of an Audyssey thing rather than a D/M thing: Default target response has a midrange dip, which IMO makes movie dialog harder to follow - dunno why they did this? But target response can be edited with the aid of Andoid/IOS app, which sells for $20 IIRC.

Please can you briefly summarise how to defeat this problem?

 

[JeffS7444]

Please can you briefly summarise how to defeat this problem?

Unfortunately, editing Audyssey's target response requires a non-free Android/iOS app. Make sure that your model of receiver supports it, because the entry-level models generally don't.

 

[beadlesabout]

Unfortunately, editing Audyssey's target response requires a non-free Android/iOS app. Make sure that your model of receiver supports it, because the entry-level models generally don't.

I have a Cinema 40. Not set it up yet, but vocal clarity is very important to me as my ears are a bit shot. Any pointers on how to defeat the problem you describe would be much appreciated

 

[JeffS7444]

I have a Cinema 40. Not set it up yet, but vocal clarity is very important to me as my ears are a bit shot. Any pointers on how to defeat the problem you describe would be much appreciated

Almost all dialog in a cinema soundtrack is handled by the center channel. Audyssey app allows you to modify the target response via your device's touch screen. This is what the original target response for my center channel looked like:

I touched the part of the graph representing the 2 kHz dip, and dragged it upwards, resulting in this:

If I felt that I needed even more vocal intelligibility, a modest bump in the 1 kHz - 5 kHz region ought to do nicely.

There's no harm in removing the dip in the other channels as well, but since there's seldom if ever, any dialog there, it's not particularly important.

 

[beadlesabout]

Almost all dialog in a cinema soundtrack is handled by the center channel. Audyssey app allows you to modify the target response via your device's touch screen. This is what the original target response for my center channel looked like:
View attachment 383353
I touched the part of the graph representing the 2 kHz dip, and dragged it upwards, resulting in this:
View attachment 383354

Very interesting, thanks.

Why would they put this dip in?

 

[JeffS7444]

Why would they put this dip in?

I've wondered if it was their version of the "BBC dip" and intended to deliver a more "polite" sound. Try your own system with and without the dip and see which works best for you.

 

[beadlesabout]

Thanks for your help and experience. Much appreciated.

My main 2 channel system is a Quad 33/303 with Tannoy Monitor Gold, so I’m firmly in the polite BBC sound camp!

I’ll try both and see where I end up.

 

[Gorgonzola]

They are pricey compared to their closest Denon competitors at full price but you can get some great deals. You get the best HDMI CEC in the business and it is up to you if the Cinema 60 fits your cosmetic preferences over the similar Denon’s.

As I understand, Marantz is nowadays owned by Denon.

 

[Oddball]

Masimo which is a US public company owns both Denon and Marantz. In April they announced that they are planning to spin off both of them together with some other consumer businesses they own. Not sure if any updates on the current status of the plans. In general, this means they would not be opposed to selling them to the right buyer for the right price.

 

[peng]

I've wondered if it was their version of the "BBC dip" and intended to deliver a more "polite" sound. Try your own system with and without the dip and see which works best for you.

They implemented it to preserve the so called BBC dip. In reality, not just that, because many older speakers seemed to have that dip, probably because of the compromise made in tbe crossover point that often were in the 2000 to 2500 Hz range.

 

[Mr. Widget]

Why would they put this dip in?

I asked Tomlinson Holman that very question when Audyssey first added that "feature" and he was still part of the company. He said that they found it subjectively improved the SQ in most typical home theaters. I have never been a fan and have almost always defeated the dip. It will improve the SQ of some speakers in some rooms though.

 

[GXAlan]

As I understand, Marantz is nowadays owned by Denon.

It is. What I mean is the

Cinema 40 vs X6800H; both are $3500 but 9.4 vs 11.4

Cinema 30 vs X6800H; both are 11.4 but the Cinema 30 is $4500

 

[GXAlan]

I asked Tomlinson Holman that very question when Audyssey first added that "feature" and he was still part of the company. He said that they found it subjectively improved the SQ in most typical home theaters. I have never been a fan and have almost always defeated the dip. It will improve the SQ of some speakers in some rooms though.

https://ask.audyssey.com/hc/en-us/articles/212347863-Midrange-Compensation

They echo the same thing in the official Q&A

 

[Southpaw99]

It is. What I mean is the

Cinema 40 vs X6800H; both are $3500 but 9.4 vs 11.4

Cinema 30 vs X6800H; both are 11.4 but the Cinema 30 is $4500

But the 6800 is not the same level as the Cinema 30 - look inside each one and can you honestly say they’re the same level…obviously not.
Cinema 30
More powerful amp section/power supply/better design
Copper shielding throughout
Likely the highest sinad ever for an AVR (I know that gets many on this forum really excited)
Miles better aesthetics
Much higher quality remote
I’m willing to bet most would think it sounds better as well

Those are the main differences that come to mind.

 

[GXAlan]

But the 6800 is not the same level as the Cinema 30 - look inside each one and can you honestly say they’re the same level…obviously not.
Cinema 30
More powerful amp section/power supply/better design
Copper shielding throughout
Likely the highest sinad ever for an AVR (I know that gets many on this forum really excited)
Miles better aesthetics
Much higher quality remote
I’m willing to bet most would think it sounds better as well

Those are the main differences that come to mind.

I agree. The Cinema 30 is better built for sure even if it doesn't sound better but it's $1000 more expensive. The Cinema 40 is worse, but it's the same price. What you really want is the setup to be staggered. So x4800 for 2.5K, Cinema 40 3K, X6800H 3.5K and Cinema 30 at 4K and then you have an interesting pattern.

Right now, the Cinema 30 is a good option for a flagship AVR that's cheaper than AVR-A1H -- but the Cinema 40?

I had the Marantz PM-10 and SA-10 at one point. Gorgeous *look* and probably doesn't sound any better than a Topping stack. But the remote was incredible. I do think the sound can be different at times (which I have measured and shown). All that said, I didn't pay full price on the Marantz and at full price, it wouldn't be worth it.

 

[Chrispy]

Just saw this thread and thought wow did Sound United get dissolved or something? The Marantz "sound" is just so much bs. Denon is generally the better value of these sister brands IMO.

 

[Sal1950]

As I understand, Marantz is nowadays owned by Denon.

It could just as easily, if not more so, be said that Denon is now owned by Marantz.
Since both are currently owned by the US corp Masimo


Any Marantz "sound" is mainly the result of the DAC filters chosen by management
According to Amir, current units have either switched away from the old DAC filter or offer choices in the software.

Beauty is in the eye and all that, I like the porthole cosmetic design which reminds us of the Marantz look from the famed
early Saul Marantz products. To my eye they look better than the same as, same as, same as, look of all the rest of the receivers, the ones where you have to get up close to read the corp name to know who made it.
"An Icon Of Design" as they call it."

 

[Southpaw99]

I agree. The Cinema 30 is better built for sure even if it doesn't sound better but it's $1000 more expensive. The Cinema 40 is worse, but it's the same price. What you really want is the setup to be staggered. So x4800 for 2.5K, Cinema 40 3K, X6800H 3.5K and Cinema 30 at 4K and then you have an interesting pattern.

Right now, the Cinema 30 is a good option for a flagship AVR that's cheaper than AVR-A1H -- but the Cinema 40?

I had the Marantz PM-10 and SA-10 at one point. Gorgeous *look* and probably doesn't sound any better than a Topping stack. But the remote was incredible. I do think the sound can be different at times (which I have measured and shown). All that said, I didn't pay full price on the Marantz and at full price, it wouldn't be worth it.

The guy below has studied them both for days and days without sleep. Look at his eyes. Think he’s wrong? LOL.

 

[peng]

But the 6800 is not the same level as the Cinema 30 - look inside each one and can you honestly say they’re the same level…obviously not.
Cinema 30
More powerful amp section/power supply/better design
Copper shielding throughout
Likely the highest sinad ever for an AVR (I know that gets many on this forum really excited)
Miles better aesthetics
Much higher quality remote
I’m willing to bet most would think it sounds better as well

Those are the main differences that come to mind.

Yes, better build on terms of physical, but electrically very much the same except no hdams in the 6800, SINAD will likely be within 1 to 2 dB. If use as prepro, the 6800 is a no brainer, use as avr, the C30 is worth more for sure, but for $1,000 more, some may consider it too much, it is also highly subjectve, obviously.