Is Marantz dead?

[EWL5]

Marantz sounds "warmer" only in Pure Direct mode. Once you run Audyssey, it will sound just like your averaged Denon, except for the placebo effect since you pained extra $...

You also get a nice porthole w/extremely small font!

 

[Southpaw99]

You also get a nice porthole w/extremely small font!

Who uses the front of a processor in 2024 when you have an on screen HD guide? Baffles me every time someone mentions the porthole. What are you doing bro? Are you really trying to look across the room to see what’s displayed on the AVR? Is this 1980 or 2024?

 

[peng]

Marantz sounds "warmer" only in Pure Direct mode. Once you run Audyssey, it will sound just like your averaged Denon, except for the placebo effect since you pained extra $...

Even in Pure direct, there is no evidence, HDAMs, should be transparent, but has to add distortions and noise, dac slow filter, only drop a couple dB by 20 kHz so a very gentle slope, and only for contents with sampling rate below 48 kHz based on the fr when using the slow filter. Not all Models either, the NR series don't even have HDAMs. So, yes, it's all Placebo, hearsay, groupthink..., competent marketing team!!

 

[EWL5]

Who uses the front of a processor in 2024 when you have an on screen HD guide? Baffles me every time someone mentions the porthole. What are you doing bro? Are you really trying to look across the room to see what’s displayed on the AVR? Is this 1980 or 2024?

I look at the front of the AVR for volume feedback all the time! Not everyone can/wants to use the OSD from Denon/Marantz!

 

[Southpaw99]

I look at the front of the AVR for volume feedback all the time! Not everyone can/wants to use the OSD from Denon/Marantz!

Why not? You would rather not use your 65-85” tv to see it all (volume, channels being used, format of the source, etc) in HD than the tiny font on the front of the AVR or processor? I don’t get it.

PS. There’s this button on your remote that says display. Use it sometime. Might amaze you.

 

[Oddball]

If you guys want a good lough, you might want to hear what Marantz marketing has to say about the warm sound, and how it is achieved. There are some real gems between 3:00 and 6:15. [Spoiler: involves elven gold ears as well ]

 

[Galliardist]

Only “very good” Sinad? The AV10 has the highest Sinad of any processor ever made. The 8015 was excellent and the cinema 30 is supposedly right there with the AV10 so it will likely measure as the highest AVR ever made as well.

I'm absolutely going to stick with the rating brackets given here. The AV10's result (107) puts it in the very good category. Also, while I know this is the HT area here, I think it still worth considering that Marantz don't have a stereo product that would reach excellent either, which does suggest that they are doing something that limits the absolute technical performance: they also have those descending measurements at lower price levels as well.

My comment was not meant as a put-down, and it's unlikely that a theoretical product that reached the excellent category would sound better than the AV10.. And all else being equal, any product with a very good Sinad rating here can be bought with confidence.

 

[Oddball]

As to the title of the thread - IMO Marantz is positioning itself for the market where people also take into account appearance of the unit. While I own AV-10, and don't really think that it is a work of art in terms of appearance, it certainly beats the Denon design (pothole and functionality aside). Marantz 2023/4 line got the lookie-lookie upgrade, Denon's remain the plain Janes they were. This will be sufficient for some people to buy it. People that are fine with Denon design and conscious about value will likely become Denon customers. And obviously at the top end, Denon does not have AVP, so no real choice there - consistent with the previous line-ups.

As to SINAD, it took really really long time to get to 107dB in the AVP/AVR design and that is a real achievement for Marantz. Anthem AV90, Trinnov and Storm are all in above 100dB category and probably not possible to practically distinguish them from AV-10 without any room EQ. Design for the multi-channel AVP/AVR is a more challenging that for stereo, and we are IMO unlikely to see designs that will push the limit beyond 110dB any time soon (as don't see many wanting to pay for those).

What really distinguishes all these high SINAD performing AVP/AVR products is the room EQ and bass management. And that is a whole different and much more complicated story.

 

[peng]

If you guys want a good lough, you might want to hear what Marantz marketing has to say about the warm sound, and how it is achieved. There are some real gems between 3:00 and 6:15. [Spoiler: involves elven gold ears as well ]

Yeah, nice photos, but the BS!

 

[Oddball]

Yeah, nice photos, but the BS!

Was obviously meant as a joke - but also indication what marketing guys can do to "sell" the product. Can't say that as AV-10 owner I am really happy that this video exists a year after it was posted, but it is what it is. If I was Garry's boss, I would have deleted it for sure and have a serious conversation with the warm, golden ear loving man.

Otherwise, I do stand on the same ground as you .

 

[peng]

Yeah, nice photos, but the BS!

It is so sad to know there are enough gullible people to let them perpetuate such bs.

 

[peng]

Was obviously meant as a joke - but also indication what marketing guys can do to "sell" the product. Can't say that as AV-10 owner I am really happy that this video exists a year after it was posted, but it is what it is. If I was Garry's boss, I would have deleted it for sure and have a serious conversation with the warm, golden ear loving man.

Otherwise, I do stand on the same ground as you .

Again, it is a great video and. Watched it before at least twice for the nice teardown photos. The AV10 is the best AVP I have seen so far, it needs no bs subjective reviews.

 

[Southpaw99]

I'm absolutely going to stick with the rating brackets given here. The AV10's result (107) puts it in the very good category. Also, while I know this is the HT area here, I think it still worth considering that Marantz don't have a stereo product that would reach excellent either, which does suggest that they are doing something that limits the absolute technical performance: they also have those descending measurements at lower price levels as well.

My comment was not meant as a put-down, and it's unlikely that a theoretical product that reached the excellent category would sound better than the AV10.. And all else being equal, any product with a very good Sinad rating here can be bought with confidence.

You bring up an excellent point regarding this obsession chasing the highest SINAD number. It’s not even audible past a certain point and many seem to just ignore this! Gene did a video on this issue recently. There seems to be this marantz bashing “groupthink” regarding this forum though. Not sure why that is. Fact is that a very high % of people buying the cinema line have been extremely impressed and love the unit they’ve bought. I don’t even own one. Just pointing that out after reading many reviews at this point including ones on this forum.

 

[Southpaw99]

As to the title of the thread - IMO Marantz is positioning itself for the market where people also take into account appearance of the unit. While I own AV-10, and don't really think that it is a work of art in terms of appearance, it certainly beats the Denon design (pothole and functionality aside). Marantz 2023/4 line got the lookie-lookie upgrade, Denon's remain the plain Janes they were. This will be sufficient for some people to buy it. People that are fine with Denon design and conscious about value will likely become Denon customers. And obviously at the top end, Denon does not have AVP, so no real choice there - consistent with the previous line-ups.

As to SINAD, it took really really long time to get to 107dB in the AVP/AVR design and that is a real achievement for Marantz. Anthem AV90, Trinnov and Storm are all in above 100dB category and probably not possible to practically distinguish them from AV-10 without any room EQ. Design for the multi-channel AVP/AVR is a more challenging that for stereo, and we are IMO unlikely to see designs that will push the limit beyond 110dB any time soon (as don't see many wanting to pay for those).

What really distinguishes all these high SINAD performing AVP/AVR products is the room EQ and bass management. And that is a whole different and much more complicated story.

I absolutely think aesthetic matters to a lot of people spending $1-10k on AV products and can enhance the enjoyment someone might get from using it. The denon AVRs have a very dated look that hasn’t changed ever going back to the 90s! Look exactly the same. If it’s going in a closet, I guess it doesn’t matter.

 

[Oddball]

I absolutely think aesthetic matters to a lot of people spending $1-10k on AV products and can enhance the enjoyment someone might get from using it. The denon AVRs have a very dated look that hasn’t changed ever going back to the 90s! Look exactly the same. If it’s going in a closet, I guess it doesn’t matter.

Just for the sake of transparency, I do own Denon 6700H and good enough for me. AV-10 was bought on basis of being AVP for a larger system where I just did not want to compromise.

 

[Southpaw99]

Just for the sake of transparency, I do own Denon 6700H and good enough for me. AV-10 was bought on basis of being AVP for a larger system where I just did not want to compromise.

“Just did not want to compromise”. I was just making this point over on AVS recently when the discussion centered around AVR vs. dedicated processor for a dedicated room. My point was exactly what you said. If you spend a considerable amt on the construction of a room with room treatment etc, I would absolutely go the separates route to leave no doubt I’ve done all I could to enhance the performance of the room.

 

[Oddball]

“Just did not want to compromise”. I was just making this point over on AVS recently when the discussion centered around AVR vs. dedicated processor for a dedicated room. My point was exactly what you said. If you spend a considerable amt on the construction of a room with room treatment etc, I would absolutely go the separates route to leave no doubt I’ve done all I could to enhance the performance of the room.

Truth to be told, I already had the amps, and was looking for the top tier performance (with Audy), so was no brainer to me at that cost.

Getting into the whole thing around AVPs vs AVRs is not something I had to think about in the bigger HT setup I have. But there are interesting questions for people that are getting into it fresh. I also keep wondering (on bad days) if my 130Wpc stereo amps (x5) for surrounds and Atmos are enough, but then I remember that each of these stereo amps has a really solid power supply and some decent capacitors to get the job done. Not really on the same plane as 200Wpc or more offered by most multi-channel apms nowadays, but then not really sure what is better approach. I can't really say that any of my amps ever clip or in any other way refuse to do their duty.

 

[Southpaw99]

Truth to be told, I already had the amps, and was looking for the top tier performance (with Audy), so was no brainer to me at that cost.

Getting into the whole thing around AVPs vs AVRs is not something I had to think about in the bigger HT setup I have. But there are interesting questions for people that are getting into it fresh. I also keep wondering (on bad days) if my 130Wpc stereo amps (x5) for surrounds and Atmos are enough, but then I remember that each of these stereo amps has a really solid power supply and some decent capacitors to get the job done. Not really on the same plane as 200Wpc or more offered by most multi-channel apms nowadays, but then not really sure what is better approach. I can't really say that any of my amps ever clip or in any other way refuse to do their duty.

I would think that would be plenty of power for surround and atmos channels. Are you using Audyssey or Dirac with the AV10? Have you tried Audyssey One thru the app that everyone is clamoring about?

 

[Oddball]

I would think that would be plenty of power for surround and atmos channels. Are you using Audyssey or Dirac with the AV10? Have you tried Audyssey One thru the app that everyone is clamoring about?

That was more of a theoretical question - I have really more power than ever needed even at reference levels with the room and speakers. It is really about wattage, power supply and capacitors and how they could play together with the gear.

I am using Audy EQX, and have not tried the One script in a while. My setup is quite complicated and challenging though so would not advertise it as poster child for EQ. Each should really tailor these things to their own system and preferences. What works for me is not necessarily what would work for other rooms/systems/preferences. Some people love Dirac and perhaps rightfully so.

 

[EWL5]

If you guys want a good lough, you might want to hear what Marantz marketing has to say about the warm sound, and how it is achieved. There are some real gems between 3:00 and 6:15. [Spoiler: involves elven gold ears as well ]

The force is strong w/this presentation ("these are not the droids you're looking for)!

My favorite part is when Gary Dayton says, "...we never really know what the original artist intended." (~2:00 mark).
What a way to say "our product is not transparent"!