IEM's - Where do diminishing returns start - cost wise? $10, $15, $20, $30, $50, $200, etc, etc

[InfiniteJester]

I have definitely noticed that there is a group of people who can perceive a sound stage with IEMs and a group who think they can't hear a sound stage and only hear it close up in their head. You're right, the whole system of ear canal and driver and tip plays a role. I think it's about reflections in the ear canal and possibly in the IEM body, which create a kind of sound stage. For anatomical reasons, this may only be possible for some people in the outer ear canal and they cannot perceive a sound stage with IEMs.

I would bet that it is related with spatial abilities and hyper/aphastasia.

It would be interesting to test people to see what happens.

 

[herr.jemine]

I would bet that it is related with spatial abilities and hyper/aphastasia.

It would be interesting to test people to see what happens.

interesting, that could be - perhaps the brain interpolates a sound stage in these people more strongly,

 

[muza_1]

I have definitely noticed that there is a group of people who can perceive a sound stage with IEMs and a group who think they can't hear a sound stage and only hear it close up in their head. You're right, the whole system of ear canal and driver and tip plays a role. I think it's about reflections in the ear canal and possibly in the IEM body, which create a kind of sound stage. For anatomical reasons, this may only be possible for some people in the outer ear canal and they cannot perceive a sound stage with IEMs.

For me is just more the feeling of space, I can hear where the instruments are and some cymbals can sound a bit in front of me some hard panned sounds can sound outside of my head a bit but there is no depth just a line between my ears (plus just the feeling of stage encoded in the material) the thing is that is the same for all IEMs some can sound somewhat "distant" some are more "in your face" but the instruments/voices are in the same place is just a feeling that can change with the tuning.

I tried a lot of IEMs of different prices and technologies now and of course there are ones that sound better than others but I could never found the "magic" some talk about for me the closer the feeling (balance/tonality) of listening to speakers the better and the Harman curve with some minor changes gives me that.
For when I crave a big sound stage I use speakers, luckily I have a good room and the stage is wide with good depth.

Edit. Just to say that instruments and voices have volume as in they can sound big and full or thin and the type of sound correlates to what I hear with speakers, a full and expansive sounding track sound full and expansive in IEMs just without stage.

 

[Deleted member 2702]

I could not hear any difference between a $45 and a $300 IEM from the same brand. I was surprised.

 

[muza_1]

I could not hear any difference between a $45 and a $300 IEM from the same brand. I was surprised.

With some I could and the cheaper sounded better go figure but I going by the past conversation it can be my inability to hear a proper sound-stage but as far as tonal balance the IEMs I am using as my daily driver are one of the cheapest I have.

 

[OK1]

I could not hear any difference between a $45 and a $300 IEM from the same brand. I was surprised.

Which IEMs were these?

 

[1337wafflezz]

I know I’m late to the party but it really is funny how the distortion metrics of modern single DDs is ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY ENDGAME. Like it can’t get any better realistically. So diminishing returns doesn’t even accurately apply here…it’s more like negative returns.
Different driver types(planars are ok) tend to have worse metrics and characteristics than dynamic at this particular size bracket.

Not to say that single DDs are endgame in terms of frequency response but that can usually be easily EQ’d.

but ya really, expensive IEMs only have the real potential benefit of being able to experiment with more niche tunings, different materials, more premium looking/feeling accessories, shell shapes, etc…

 

[markanini]

I know I’m late to the party but it really is funny how the distortion metrics of modern single DDs is ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY ENDGAME. Like it can’t get any better realistically. So diminishing returns doesn’t even accurately apply here…it’s more like negative returns.
Different driver types(planars are ok) tend to have worse metrics and characteristics than dynamic at this particular size bracket.

Not to say that single DDs are endgame in terms of frequency response but that can usually be easily EQ’d.

but ya really, expensive IEMs only have the real potential benefit of being able to experiment with more niche tunings, different materials, more premium looking/feeling accessories, shell shapes, etc…

I like the bass of 1DD. If there will be an any-DD IEM that's tuned like Hexa in the treble, it will be my end game. But IEM manufacturers decided to use hybrid designs, probably due to due to market perceptions of hybrid superiority. Basically, some tuning styles I enjoy will only be available in hybrid configuration, then I will have no choice.

 

[WalterW]

Measuring frequency response and distortion is certainly helpful at first, but it's not like listening to music. Music can be very complex, so I think resonances and distortion can then arise that weren't detected by simply measuring the sound with frequency response tones.

Not true.

 

[WalterW]

well, I have a lot of cheap IEMs and some in the range of 100-300€ you can hear the difference, MP145, KZ AS24 or Timeless AE are clearly in a different league, they are very pleasant to listen to, my 7Hz Zero2, 7Hz Sonus KZ Castor, and Chu II are rotting away - The KZ AS24 are really cool - I'm impressed

What differences should that be exactly? I think it is just confirmation bias and placebo.

 

[herr.jemine]

What differences should that be exactly? I think it is just confirmation bias and placebo.

the Zero2 were my first IEMs that I bought after reading the ASR review, I was really positively surprised, before that I only had TWS HUAWEI FreeBuds Pro 2 which I used very rarely, I didn't like the sound that much, the Zero2 are definitely better, I then combined them with KZ AZ20, which are BT ear hooks, at first I was satisfied, but the more music I listened to with them the more I noticed that they start to lose resolution with certain titles, I don't know exactly how to describe it, they then sound dull and overloaded, I then tried many other IEMs, many with 1DD and hybrid drivers - then I came across the Planar Magnetic Drivers, they just sound more relaxed to me, I can listen to any music with them without having the feeling that they are overloaded, due to the recognition in the ASR test for the Chu II I got these too and was really shocked that I was even satisfied with the sound, I can't get along with them, they are too harsh, some women's voices are really hard on the ears, they are clearer compared to the Zero2, but not particularly relaxing for listening to music, in my head they definitely sound completely different. They have more resolution, but listening to music for longer periods is no fun, and that was the case with all other IEMs too - all planar ones have done me good so far, out of curiosity I also got the 7Hz Timless AE and the cheap ARTTI T10 - both very good IEMs, and because I wanted to know what multi-BA sounds like, I also got the KZ AS24, I was biased because I suspected it could be another bad buy - but it is unique, I like it a lot, perfect separation of elements and sounds, good stage - this thing has groove

 

[markanini]

the Zero2 were my first IEMs that I bought after reading the ASR review, I was really positively surprised, before that I only had TWS HUAWEI FreeBuds Pro 2 which I used very rarely, I didn't like the sound that much, the Zero2 are definitely better, I then combined them with KZ AZ20, which are BT ear hooks, at first I was satisfied, but the more music I listened to with them the more I noticed that they start to lose resolution with certain titles, I don't know exactly how to describe it, they then sound dull and overloaded, I then tried many other IEMs, many with 1DD and hybrid drivers - then I came across the Planar Magnetic Drivers, they just sound more relaxed to me, I can listen to any music with them without having the feeling that they are overloaded, due to the recognition in the ASR test for the Chu II I got these too and was really shocked that I was even satisfied with the sound, I can't get along with them, they are too harsh, some women's voices are really hard on the ears, they are clearer compared to the Zero2, but not particularly relaxing for listening to music, in my head they definitely sound completely different. They have more resolution, but listening to music for longer periods is no fun, and that was the case with all other IEMs too - all planar ones have done me good so far, out of curiosity I also got the 7Hz Timless AE and the cheap ARTTI T10 - both very good IEMs, and because I wanted to know what multi-BA sounds like, I also got the KZ AS24, I was biased because I suspected it could be another bad buy - but it is unique, I like it a lot, perfect separation of elements and sounds, good stage - this thing has groove

I think you would like Hexa, it's resolving and relaxed at the same time. Doesn't force your attention, but instead reveals much when you chose to focus on musical elements. No 1DD-2DD I've tried has this particular quality.

 

[muza_1]

but ya really, expensive IEMs only have the real potential benefit of being able to experiment with more niche tunings, different materials, more premium looking/feeling accessories, shell shapes, etc…

After some years I came to the conclusion that for me is not worth it. Better turn my attention to the music which I almost forgot to do trying so many IEMs.

Niche tunings? I spend too much time finding one to my liking so thanks but no thanks, not about to destroy all that work with self doubt .

As for looks, materials or shapes I really don't care as long as they are reliable and well made, that's it for me, although comfort is a huge thing so is isolation to a degree (I prefer rear vented ones) I mostly use IEMs outdoors.

What differences should that be exactly? I think it is just confirmation bias and placebo.

I think some differences can be attributed to fitting/design but price has nothing to do with it.

 

[OK1]

the Zero2 were my first IEMs that I bought after reading the ASR review, I was really positively surprised, before that I only had TWS HUAWEI FreeBuds Pro 2 which I used very rarely, I didn't like the sound that much, the Zero2 are definitely better, I then combined them with KZ AZ20, which are BT ear hooks, at first I was satisfied, but the more music I listened to with them the more I noticed that they start to lose resolution with certain titles, I don't know exactly how to describe it, they then sound dull and overloaded, I then tried many other IEMs, many with 1DD and hybrid drivers - then I came across the Planar Magnetic Drivers, they just sound more relaxed to me, I can listen to any music with them without having the feeling that they are overloaded, due to the recognition in the ASR test for the Chu II I got these too and was really shocked that I was even satisfied with the sound, I can't get along with them, they are too harsh, some women's voices are really hard on the ears, they are clearer compared to the Zero2, but not particularly relaxing for listening to music, in my head they definitely sound completely different. They have more resolution, but listening to music for longer periods is no fun, and that was the case with all other IEMs too - all planar ones have done me good so far, out of curiosity I also got the 7Hz Timless AE and the cheap ARTTI T10 - both very good IEMs, and because I wanted to know what multi-BA sounds like, I also got the KZ AS24, I was biased because I suspected it could be another bad buy - but it is unique, I like it a lot, perfect separation of elements and sounds, good stage - this thing has groove

I think your observation corresponds with expectations of the technology behind each combination of IEM transducers. And this really helps people like me. In theory, a planar magnetic is similar to a ribbon.

In professional audio, ribbon microphones are typically used to record instruments with tons of high frequency - cos such microphones have a rolloff at the high end., complementing sources such as brass instruments. So what I deduce, from your comments, is planar magnetics will have a characteristic rolloff on the high end, less spiky and easier to listen to, over long periods. Less fatiguing than some poorly tuned DD IEM's with enhanced High frequencies.

Never having listened to one. I'm wondering - for critical listening where detail and resolution is really important, how well would a planar magnetic perform compared to the best single DD or multiple DD IEM?

From what I see - The KZ family - which is the one I know a bit more about, since I spent many recent weeks learning about their range of products, has IEM's catering to different preferences, and with their ever increasing range of user tunable IEM's, it's becoming more possible to acquire IEMs which can satisfy a wider range of users - cos the tuning can be customised post sale/purchase., by the user.

Theoretically the best driver technology should be infinitely light, infinitely rigid, and use a single driver, that can reproduce all frequencies equally. In theory.

 

[WalterW]

the Zero2 were my first IEMs that I bought after reading the ASR review, I was really positively surprised, before that I only had TWS HUAWEI FreeBuds Pro 2 which I used very rarely, I didn't like the sound that much, the Zero2 are definitely better, I then combined them with KZ AZ20, which are BT ear hooks, at first I was satisfied, but the more music I listened to with them the more I noticed that they start to lose resolution with certain titles, I don't know exactly how to describe it, they then sound dull and overloaded, I then tried many other IEMs, many with 1DD and hybrid drivers - then I came across the Planar Magnetic Drivers, they just sound more relaxed to me, I can listen to any music with them without having the feeling that they are overloaded, due to the recognition in the ASR test for the Chu II I got these too and was really shocked that I was even satisfied with the sound, I can't get along with them, they are too harsh, some women's voices are really hard on the ears, they are clearer compared to the Zero2, but not particularly relaxing for listening to music, in my head they definitely sound completely different. They have more resolution, but listening to music for longer periods is no fun, and that was the case with all other IEMs too - all planar ones have done me good so far, out of curiosity I also got the 7Hz Timless AE and the cheap ARTTI T10 - both very good IEMs, and because I wanted to know what multi-BA sounds like, I also got the KZ AS24, I was biased because I suspected it could be another bad buy - but it is unique, I like it a lot, perfect separation of elements and sounds, good stage - this thing has groove

There is definitely no difference in resolution between any of these, this may partly be to frequency response, the rest is you imagination. The Zero2 resolves the audible band between 20Hz an 20 kHz without any problem, there is no more resolution to be had.

 

[1337wafflezz]

There is definitely no difference in resolution between any of these, this may partly be to frequency response, the rest is you imagination. The Zero2 resolves the audible band between 20Hz an 20 kHz without any problem, there is no more resolution to be had.

Yes and no. Arguably there there could be some auditory masking from the bass which is boosted even by 5128 standards. Also some other things could be masked based on an individual’s HRTF which could shift the frequency response differently than what any measurement device shows.
but ya other than that and the also arguably weird shell shape? ya they look like a banger.

 

[markanini]

I have the impression of higher resolution at least with the Hexa which uses BAs for mids and treble, versus something like Truthear Gate. Semantically this may be incorrect, and what's going on has to do with how the auditory system processes stimuli from devices with different FR. Probably in large part related to frequency masking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auditory_masking So not really anything scientifically inconceivable, because the basic criteria of FR being distinctly differentiated is fulfilled.

From this vantage point, claims made in this thread seem like a bigger stretch, such as "nothing is gained from a IEM costing more than $20" "1DD is enough for reproducing the audible frequency range", unless you have very rudimentary requirements for audio reproduction. How audio reproduction technology relates to the auditory system is something we know more than nothing about, but not fully in this context of IEMs. It may mostly be knowledge by inference at this point, and very generally. But definitely nothing more robust or specific to counter the subjective talking points. But knowing that the FR is different, and knowing of some complexity in the human auditory processes that exists, should be enough to say, "there is a difference". That leaves us with the unproven concept of "better", which is yet to be determined in a organized way. That would require some kind of double-blind tests at scale at the very least. Such test would be the only way an IEM manufacturer would be able to determine what a "better" IEM is, and business incentives would be to keep such data secret in case of positive results, so we are left to discuss impressions of subjective IEM performance on public forums like ASR.

 

[WalterW]

Yes and no. Arguably there there could be some auditory masking from the bass which is boosted even by 5128 standards. Also some other things could be masked based on an individual’s HRTF which could shift the frequency response differently than what any measurement device shows.
but ya other than that and the also arguably weird shell shape? ya they look like a banger.

Sure, masking exists any can explain "perceived" resolution, which in fact has nothing to do with real resolution (or the lack thereof). But it has even less to do with driver types or numbers, just frequency response.

 

[Ktacos]

In professional audio, ribbon microphones are typically used to record instruments with tons of high frequency - cos such microphones have a rolloff at the high end., complementing sources such as brass instruments. So what I deduce, from your comments, is planar magnetics will have a characteristic rolloff on the high end, less spiky and easier to listen to, over long periods. Less fatiguing than some poorly tuned DD IEM's with enhanced High frequencies.

I'm not sure how correlation there is here. Ribbons and planars are different types of drivers/mic diapgrahms, and they don't really share much in common other than distortion. If you look at the response of ribbon mics, it's the opposite of a ribbon/planar tweeter.

 

[Ktacos]

To give an answer to the thread questions. It's $20.

Before, it was $50 with the crinacle x truth stuff. After hearing the salnotes, it's now moved down to $20. I've had a good chunk of IEMs over the years, KZ, moondrop, whatever. All the cheaper ones I have I bought as they measured neutral, and that's why you get with them. I can switch between any of the good IEM's and get largely the same sound, it's great. Meanwhile a pair of pricey shures I had were comparatively terrible. All the multi driver IEM's crack me up as well, like clearly you can do it all with 1 driver so what on earth do they need multiple drivers for? I'd hate to be in charge of a big money IEM company right now.