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IEM's - Where do diminishing returns start - cost wise? $10, $15, $20, $30, $50, $200, etc, etc

Sony is.. fickle.

I lost one of it (darn MMCX connector on XBA-N3 - again Sony gonna do what Sony does) and had to buy it again from a random seller in Japan. I have several IEMs but none as good as these. Truthear Zero:2 Red comes close in tonality but the fit is so poor I can’t wear it for long.

A few years ago I lost my original XBA I bought back in late 2016 but they were discontinued so I bought Airpod Pro’s, I was browsing headfi Xmas 22 and hit “new posts” and an advert came up for a fully boxed set in A1 condition from Germany, I had them bought and paid for within 5 mins of the advert going live. :p

There’s an unopened/sealed set that occasionally pops up on eBay from a trustworthy seller in Japan but it’s a buy it now for £350ish and that’s a big expense, you can get some exceptionally well tuned iem’s for around that price.
 
I have this theory, based on all the headphones I have bought to date. In the late 90's I bought a precious MB-Quart headphone, but the build quality was poor - materials degraded over time, and its construction wa not robust. Poor Low Frequency response.

10 years ago, AKG K702, became mine. Definitely more balanced with more bass. But you never know what's better until you try other things.

The CCA CRA is in another league, over and above the AKG K702. Better frequency response, dynamic response, intelligibility. Clarity, depth, just everything, a wonder of the modern world. And to think I can have this for less than $50. Amazing.

Now to the theory. Human knowledge about hearing and material science and manufacturing, and finance, market research, continues to improve. Competition accelerates this. If we look at examples such as cars, solar technology, DACs, over time, they just get better and better., and less expensive.

I've come to a conclusion that I have to accept that however unthinkable, after my personal satisfactory experience with the CCA CRA, which in my opinion is head and shoulders over the AKG K702 that I have owned for almost 10 years, and listened to regularly.

I wish I had a database of when each IEM was launched. To arrive at the point where diminishing returns starts, there will be a point in history where some change occurred in the science and art of IEM manufacture, where incremental quality improvements coincided with cost reductions. I suspect it happened about the same time as my version of the CCA CRA, which I'm tempted to buy and keep a few copies of. Just in case they tamper with the design, like these ill advised "remasters" on music streaming sites, that no one asked for.

Modern DAC's are more likely to exceed the performance of older DACs, for less money. Same with speakers, and from what I have heard from the CCA CRA revision (aka V2), this seems to be the same trend with IEMs. i.e if its a really old IEM, maybe not worth bothering, cos the advantages of newer IEM's outweigh their disadvantages. So this seems to be one important threshold of the diminishing returns. Do not listen to the hype, in the same way I discovered that the ranking of dongles, did not align with the measured statistics, i.e the reviewer in this case was speaking out of his wazoo (https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...-dongle-search-rabbit-hole.50043/post-2003401 ), unless subjective opinions are corroborated across many reviewers, looks like subjective reviews, can be largely ignored.

If I had been listening to reviews, especially the kind where the product is provided by the manufacturer, for free, I would not have bought the CCA CRA - which was bought without any justification - well price - low enough not to cry over the cost.

So - buy recent products as much as possible, e.g launched no earlier than 3 years from date of purchase ideally, and accept the only way to learn what an IEM will sound like, is to listen to it for yourself.
 
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I wish I had a database of when each IEM was launched. To arrive at the point where diminishing returns starts, there will be a point in history where some change occurred in the science and art of IEM manufacture, where incremental quality improvements coincided with cost reductions. I suspect it happened about the same time as my version of the CCA CRA, which I'm tempted to buy and keep a few copies of.

Around 2015/16 iem tunings began to get very good, I bought my Sony XBA-N3 1DD/1BA in 2016 and it was so much better tuned than my previous shures/westones/sennheiser/etymotics I had been through since 2000ish, I stopped buying iem’s till the release of the 7Hz Timeless in 2021 as I was curious about the “Planar” sound so bought one, since sold though as whilst it was very engaging for short listens, it ultimately wasn’t to my tastes in the way the treble was expressed.
 
Around 2015/16 iem tunings began to get very good, I bought my Sony XBA-N3 1DD/1BA in 2016 and it was so much better tuned than my previous shures/westones/sennheiser/etymotics I had been through since 2000ish, I stopped buying iem’s till the release of the 7Hz Timeless in 2021 as I was curious about the “Planar” sound so bought one, since sold though as whilst it was very engaging for short listens, it ultimately wasn’t to my tastes in the way the treble was expressed.
I also have been curious about planar magnetic. You know FOMO (fear of missing out). I was highly tempted to get the Artti T10, it's sometimes affordable on sale, about $50. And been tempted to invest in one of the KZ or CCA planar magnetics. I probably still will, if spare cash is available.

The overall opinion seems to be that Planar Magnetic has its own "sound", and for now, I'll just watch this category. The KZ Planars in my budget, seem to be all over the place in opinions about them, so am hesitant to commit.

I tend to listen for several hours a day. One thing I can say is a good IEM, helps to lower the volume at which I listen, which can only be good for one's long term hearing. With good clarity, I can turn things down and still hear well enough.

What I have in mind is to set aside about $30 to $50 on a few more budget IEMs(two or three more - depending on cost), to test the waters. In contrast, if I bought a Sennheiser HD650 or HD 600, I'd be spending a lot more than that on a single purchase.
 
nope,the topic is not that simple:

Yes, there are all kind of different drivers and combinations of them but for IEMs what matters is frequency response and distortion.
 
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I recently ordered Truthear Hexa for $75. A long standing recommendation in it's price range among IEM enthusiasts so I will share all my impressions when it reaches me.
 
I recently ordered Truthear Hexa for $75. A long standing recommendation in it's price range among IEM enthusiasts so I will share all my impressions when it reaches me.
Definitely look forward to your impressions.
 
I wish I had a database of when each IEM was launched. To arrive at the point where diminishing returns starts, there will be a point in history where some change occurred in the science and art of IEM manufacture, where incremental quality improvements coincided with cost reductions
If we have to set a point, I think that the original Moondrop Chu release date is a strong candidate.

I recently ordered Truthear Hexa for $75. A long standing recommendation in it's price range among IEM enthusiasts so I will share all my impressions when it reaches me.
Curious to hear your impressions, I had a bitter experience with Hexa, I was not able to reach a decent fit with any type of eartips so couldn't really evaluate sonic performance and returned them after very few days. Never happened with any other iems, couldn't find out what in their shape didn't fit my ears at all.
 
it starts right after $20. And I had well regarded IEMs up to $1300.
Price is just a number...
 
If we have to set a point, I think that the original Moondrop Chu release date is a strong candidate.
When I have time, it would be superb, to build something on Wikipedia (I have no experience of this, but should not be too hard), and others can revise and improve it.

Noted - Sounds credible - Moondrop Chu... Thanks
 
I was pretty shocked that the CCA website specified on the packaging of the CCA CRA, is unreachable. www.ccahifi.com.


This facebook page does provide a relatively chronological listing of the release/announcement dates, of their recent products.

And this does for KZ (and CCA) products, somewhat.


And this next one is probably the best providing a chronological order (with a bit of assumption) of both KZ and CCA products, with lots of filtering and search and sort options


And the KZ specific site with lots of product details and pretty images

 
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Just changed my eartips from the medium which were the default attached, on the CCA CRA's, to the large, resulting in a much better ear/air seal. and the immersiveness of the audio just bumped up to another level of intimacy, more 3D virtual reality, and the clarity and smoothness of the audio went up another notch. More like being in touch with the music. Stereo went wider, probably too wide. Larger tips led me to to disable a slight EQ I had added, which is no longer needed. Wow. Clarity and cohesiveness of the audio went up another notch. Much much better. The harsh ish top end is gone. smooth top end now. less fatiguing. perception of placement and distance of each element in the mix, is better. Intelligibility gone up again. Wow.
 
Excellent. Thanks for the clarification. I'm still new in all of this, and have never used bluetooth audio for anything in my life, not once, never. I do eventually think I'll get at least one or two, bluetooth audio things, someday.

With your clarification, pretty sure many others who understand what you need will respond. My only knowledge is that KZ have a couple of products for this :







It is amazing, what is available today, compared to 15 years ago. So much choice, so many configurations. But this implies so many things to check for - does it have the right PIN connections (0.75 or 0.78, etc, etc) for my IEM's)? Which bluetooth standard does it support. Does it support the Bluetooth Audio codec - I prefer?

Best wishes with your search. Do let us know what you end up buying and how satisfied you are with it. Thanks
Ditch their old solutions, they must measure terribly. I remember the irony of having them to power my old ZS pro, an uber sensitive iem (as is most KZs) and hearing the high noise floor, distortion, and poor signal reception and gating all the time. I'd trust FiiO way more than their solutions.
 
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Ditch their old solutions, they must measure terribly. I remember the irony of having them to power my old ZS pro, a uber sensitive iem (as is most KZs) and hearing the high noise floor, distortion, and poor signal reception and gating all the time. I'd trust FiiO way more than their solutions.
I had a really ear opening experience yesterday. I listened to my stage piano - a Yamaha CP33 through the CCA CRA's. For the 1st time in 12 years, I was hearing the noise from the headphone output, with ease. No other headphone has ever done that. My main headphone has been an AKG K702 - nothing like that ever happened. And that digital piano sounded like total rubbish. LIke I was being told the truth for the very 1st time. The real truth.

Yet this same headphone has zero noise when plugged into the TempoTec Sonata BHD - none whatsoever - the silence is like dark black on a good quality TV or computer monitor - zilch - you hear nothing - no noise. Same headphone.

Could it be that a sensitive headphone, is simply revealing what's there, in the audio chain. When I was listening through a fake Samsung USB-C dongle and it had all manner of spurious noises.

What DAC were you listening through with the KZ ZS Pro's? which produces such noise. My thinking is - headphones on their own should not generate noise, unless there is already noise in the audio chain.
 
Could it be that a sensitive headphone, is simply revealing what's there, in the audio chain.
Yes, but not in an ethereal way. The truth of the matter is most sources often behave their best at high output when THD+N is concerned, so sensitive transducers pick up on the "junk" earlier on. This is why Amirm tests headphone outputs at 50mV, to see if the source can deliver a low voltage and still maintain high DR (i.e, see if the noise floor isn't too high), and the reason THD+N/SINAD vs. Measured level plots are negatively inclined:

EDIT: to clarify, when I say "most sources" I mean most modern headphone sources, which oftentimes employ negative feedback circuits (they run the signal many times in a loop in order to cancel out added distortion). More traditional designs and power amps behave more intuitively: as you push them harder, they produce more and more distortion.

1719516540366.png


1719516523772.png


See the former, while the distortion figure at 15mW is 110db SINAD, the same equipment produces "only" 80dB SINAD at 1 microW.

What DAC were you listening through with the KZ ZS Pro's? which produces such noise.

I was using KZ's neck bluetooth adapter, hence the irony: they produce very sensitive iems and suggest that we use them with their noisy sources.
 
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Ditch their old solutions, they must measure terribly. I remember the irony of having them to power my old ZS pro, an uber sensitive iem (as is most KZs) and hearing the high noise floor, distortion, and poor signal reception and gating all the time. I'd trust FiiO way more than their solutions.
Definitely now that I am able to list their products in chronological order, I will avoid the older products, on the assumption that the more recent products will have been the most improved.

May I add, with my revision to use the more sealing eartips, I am completely overwhelmed by the seamless smooth audio reproduction of music, through the CCA CRA's. So easy to hear into music. So easy, at a comfortable volume. hearing music like I have never heard it before - and the shock, all this achieved with absolutely no EQ applied. Super clear audio, once I am listening through the Tempotec Sonata BHD's. Super clear - life like audio, especially when listening to recordings from a live event., or acoustic instruments and voice recordings.
 
Yes, but not in an ethereal way. The truth of the matter is most sources often behave their best at high output when THD+N is concerned, so sensitive transducers pick up on the "junk" earlier on. This is why Amirm tests headphone outputs at 50mV, to see if the source can deliver a low voltage and still maintain high DR (i.e, see if the noise floor isn't too high), and the reason THD+N/SINAD vs. Measured level plots are negatively inclined:

EDIT: to clarify, when I say "most sources" I mean most modern headphone sources, which oftentimes employ negative feedback circuits (they run the signal many times in a loop in order to cancel out added distortion). More traditional designs and power amps behave more intuitively: as you push them harder, they produce more and more distortion.

View attachment 377677

View attachment 377676

See the former, while the distortion figure at 15mW is 110db SINAD, the same equipment produces "only" 80dB SINAD at 1 microW.



I was using KZ's neck bluetooth adapter, hence the irony: they produce very sensitive iems and suggest that we use them with their noisy sources.
Fully understand now, with respect to the headphones, the issue with noise was coming from the source, the bluetooth adapter. Guess one has to use teh same level of scrutiny with such bluetooth adapters, as with DACs, when buying one. Am not familiar with bluetooth - don't use it, but have not seen AmirM's reviews which test bluetooth specific conversion. His reviews do have measurements such as USB->Analog, SP/DIF-> Analog, but can't recall Bluetooth to analog.

For the kind of portable small bluetooth adaptors, either the kind placed on the neck or behind the ears, my thoughts are, the chip makers like Qualcomm have done most of the work, and businesses like KZ are merely bundlers adding a few bits, so things like noise should have been sorted out by the main bluetooth chip. Surely there should be bluetooth chips(I expect they have some kind of DAC in them + headphone amps) which can deliver the kind of low noise levels compatible with sensitive IEM's. Cos in that product mix, a sensitive IEM would help with long battery life, by needing lower power to drive the IEM. So solution would be to choose the KZ or other product which delivers Bluetooth to Analog conversion (which is really a Wireless DAC - hopefully with an integrated headphone amp - or the integrator adds their own headphone amp) with the low noise.

With all these products, I can imagine that there will always be a learning curve of surprises, things one did not understand too well when purchasing them, and some money would have been "wasted" in the learning curve., from assumptions, such as expecting that ALL bluetooth adapters would be low noise - which turned out not to be the case.

I'm trying to minimise my learning curve and "waste", by dipping my toes into the budget end, so if I get any surprises, I do not feel too bad. One important thing I have picked up is that the 3.5mm connector with support for microphones, can be an issue, when connected to 3.5 mm -> 6.35mm adapters, such as the one I use to listen to my CP33 Stage piano. It skewed the audio to one side of the headphones. So I now realise I need an IEM audio cable - terminating in 3.5mm, which does not support microphones, to avoid this issue. It's not one I have ever heard mentioned, and I can imagine why. Most headphone enthusiasts are not also musicians, and most will be connecting to a modern 3.5mm headphone output that has this issue sorted. My CP33 digital piano was designed 15 years ago approx, and they were not expecting 1 - low impedance headphones, and headphones with microphone inputs would be connected to their headphone output. ! So many little niggles, which all the reviews in the world can never prepare us for.

I think up to a certain limit, it is expected that we'll burn some money, as part of this learning. I have the costs of three fake Samsung dongles - my own learning curve of wasted money. Fortunately I did not spend too much on these., and will not cry too much about this. As the British say - take it on the chin (absorb the loss)
 
Ditch their old solutions, they must measure terribly. I remember the irony of having them to power my old ZS pro, an uber sensitive iem (as is most KZs) and hearing the high noise floor, distortion, and poor signal reception and gating all the time. I'd trust FiiO way more than their solutions.
Here's an interesting example where FiiO also is well reported to have put out into the market a dongle (or rather firmware) with some serious issues - so bad that the firmware cripples the dongle permanently. So I guess none of the manufacturers are immune from these mistakes.

The problem - Dongle firmware bricks the Fiio DAC :


--------------------------------------------------

The solution - A new DAC kindly provided by a reseller :

 
but can't recall Bluetooth to analog.

Bluetooth is just a protocol for transmitting digital information over the air using high frequencies. Once the signal reaches the device it is treated as any digital signal, it goes through the DAC chip (if it has a independent DAC chip) as it would if you'd use SPDIF or USB and then leaves as analog, so when measuring the performance of a bluetooth device what you're really doing is measuring the internal DAC and how well the device's "unpacks" the signal from the air. There are some exceptions to this generalisation, as sometimes the USB circuit of a dongle is "dirtier" than the signal from the bluetooth chip, but in the majority of cases, just presume that the wired DAC performance is the best performance the device can provide and the basis of it's bluetooth operation, with LDAC being almost as transparent as wired, when well implemented.

FiiO actually provides a neat diagram from their UTWS5 marketing page:

1719534468194.png


If you want actual product recommendations, I recommend the FiiO BTR line, like the BTR3K, the BTR15 and the BTR7, the Topping DC3 and the Qudelix 5K. Shanling offers some units, but I can't find any measurements on them. Both the BTR15 and the Qudelix5K have QCC chips capable of DSP, so you can do parametric EQ using their apps and save the profile into the device itself.

Regarding TWS adapters, we're unfortunately at the mercy of the manufacturers specs, nevertheless I would trust FiiOs UTWS5 and UTWS7 (or the 3, if you don't care for fancy codecs) more than the KZ's and the TRN's.
Here's an interesting example where FiiO also is well reported to have put out into the market a dongle (or rather firmware) with some serious issues - so bad that the firmware cripples the dongle permanently.

That unfortunately happens a lot with these companies, as they are more interested in releasing more products every quarter than providing support for the ones that are already released.
 
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Depends on what the IEM is going for; diminishing returns on single-driver IEMs kick in almost immediately, maybe even down to $15 with how the Chinese brands are moving nowadays. It's not to say expensive IEMs are all ripoffs (I stand by my feverish meatriding of the 64 Audio U12t), or that there's no reason to ever get one, just that in the old days you used to have to spend out to get something good, and now you don't.
Everyone should have the $9 Apple 3.5mm adapter (U.S. version), the Yincrow X6 ear buds, and 7hz Zero:2 IEMs just so they can have a baseline how good something can sound for so little money.
My girlfriend's cat chewed through the Moondrop Free DSP cable I was using to listen to my new CVJ Konokas, so I went to Best Buy and got a USB-C to 3.5mm adapter and was blown away by how much worse it sounded. That's $10 vs. $30.
 
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