IEM's - Where do diminishing returns start - cost wise? $10, $15, $20, $30, $50, $200, etc, etc

[doalt]

I also have no idea how lush, refined, mature, grown up or elegant sounds like so I couldn't identify them in the expensive sets .

That is why you need sighted comparisons. As you can't see IEMs while listening, you should look at packaging and accessories

 

[OK1]

I'm not sure how correlation there is here. Ribbons and planars are different types of drivers/mic diapgrahms, and they don't really share much in common other than distortion. If you look at the response of ribbon mics, it's the opposite of a ribbon/planar tweeter.

Thanks for the correction.

 

[muza_1]

That is why you need sighted comparisons. As you can't see IEMs while listening, you should look at packaging and accessories

Maybe in front of a mirror while keeping the package and and an open browser with all the marketing material is more effective.

 

[OK1]

Thinking of IEM's and realizing, WOW, they go down to 30Hz (and down to 20hz most of the time) in their measurements, with ease. That's not the case with many in room speakers.

 

[solderdude]

While speakers don't go as low one has to keep in mind that the lack of tactile feel (at higher SPL) in headphones might still give the impression that speakers are 'better extended'.
Most recordings won't have any info below 32Hz anyway and this is already impressively low (think rumble in music rather than 'musical tones'.

Still I am a proponent of good LF response which I feel 'adds' something. For a lot of headphones/IEMs bass extension is really easy.

 

[OK1]

While speakers don't go as low one has to keep in mind that the lack of tactile feel (at higher SPL) in headphones might still give the impression that speakers are 'better extended'.
Most recordings won't have any info below 32Hz anyway and this is already impressively low (think rumble in music rather than 'musical tones'.

Still I am a proponent of good LF response which I feel 'adds' something. For a lot of headphones/IEMs bass extension is really easy.

Sure only speakers can provide that whole body thump (I strongly suspect that there are aspects of our auditory perception in the low end that are outside our ears). At the very least I know that loud bass shakes the body via the floor and possibly the air.

Headphones will never provide that. Accepted. I've accepted this. Unless one has a dedicated listening space, acoustic treatment, no neighbours, and no one else at home, its hard to be able to blast speakers, for that visceral body + ear hit..

I moved home and my current listening room shares a wall with my neighbours, so I want to remain humane, so I've adapted to headphones, and I love the clarity, not having to deal with speakers., and not disturbing anyone else in my house, especially for late night listening.

The other thing is - my CCA CRA sounds better than my AKG K702 headphones, and my 20+ year old studio monitors that I used to swear by, now sound like something from the dark ages. A $15 headphone has exceeded several hundred dollars of investment. I was planning to get another AKG K702 cos the headband had cracked and there are no replacement parts, but for the same cost, (about $200 or less) I can easily get about 7 or 8 different good sounding IEMs, that all sound better than this headphone.

The last time I heard speakers that I recall sounded similar to my IEM's - Genelecs - they would set me back about $1,500. It's hard for me to go back to listening elsewhere, cos the cost differential is massive.

I'm pretty sure with $200 or $300 I should be able to get an IEM or a few IEM's that rival anything I could buy in speakers, for $3,000 per pair (left and right)of active speakers. The current crop of IEM's from the one example I have heard, must sound pretty good. Guess its a lot easier to get the sound right in a small device.. And I do not have to do any room treatment. ! or rearrange furniture, set up speaker stands - NOTHING. Hard to discount IEM's as a viable alternative.

 

[Basic Channel]

The other thing is - my CCA CRA sounds better than my AKG K702 headphones, and my 20+ year old studio monitors that I used to swear by, now sound like something from the dark ages. A $15 headphone has exceeded several hundred dollars of investment. I was planning to get another AKG K702 cos the headband had cracked and there are no replacement parts, but for the same cost, (about $200 or less) I can easily get about 7 or 8 different good sounding IEMs, that all sound better than this headphone.

The last time I heard speakers that I recall sounded similar to my IEM's - Genelecs - they would set me back about $1,500. It's hard for me to go back to listening elsewhere, cos the cost differential is massive.

I'm pretty sure with $200 or $300 I should be able to get an IEM or a few IEM's that rival anything I could buy in speakers, for $3,000 per pair (left and right)of active speakers. The current crop of IEM's from the one example I have heard, must sound pretty good. Guess its a lot easier to get the sound right in a small device.. And I do not have to do any room treatment. ! or rearrange furniture, set up speaker stands - NOTHING. Hard to discount IEM's as a viable alternative.

Each to their own I suppose, but I wouldn't listen to headphones or IEMs over my monitors. For all that is good about the current crops of IEMs (and headphones to a lesser extent) the measurements are a bit more iffy and they rely on individual ears. You can EQ monitors based on measurements you can trust more.

Not to mention just the sound on speakers compared to headphones or IEMs. It's a little bit like live music v studio recordings. For all that is worse about live music, it's still better (imo).

 

[OK1]

I have amazing news. The KZ ZVX just arrived. My 1st KZ IEM. 1st thing to notice is the box is about three quarters the size of the box that came with the CCA CRA., and sensitivity is a bit higher 109dB/mW instead of 105dB/mW. Definitely looking forward to listening to these. Definitely.

I did something that subjectively has made my CCA CRA sound even better. Upsampled my Youtube and Spotify listening to 96K, instead of 48K.

Have not listened to the ZVX yet. Will only form impressions, after I've given it a few weeks of "burn in" and lots of auditioning and comparing with the CCA CRA.

 

[1337wafflezz]

I have amazing news. The KZ ZVX just arrived. My 1st KZ IEM. 1st thing to notice is the box is about three quarters the size of the box that came with the CCA CRA., and sensitivity is a bit higher 109dB/mW instead of 105dB/mW. Definitely looking forward to listening to these. Definitely.

I did something that subjectively has made my CCA CRA sound even better. Upsampled my Youtube and Spotify listening to 96K, instead of 48K.

Have not listened to the ZVX yet. Will only form impressions, after I've given it a few weeks of "burn in" and lots of auditioning and comparing with the CCA CRA.

As an FYI “burn in” is probably negligible if not nonexistent with IEMs. With headphones the pads shift and the headband stretches which absolutely causes acoustic differences. Arguably the drivers are a lot bigger too so there’s more of a credence to the theory that the large drivers take longer to reach their final displacement.
With IEMs #1 there are no pads(proper tips are essential I will say). #2 the drivers are so dang small and the coils move so little that probably just a few minutes of playtime if even that is enough to get the drivers to not really ever change

 

[OK1]

As an FYI “burn in” is probably negligible if not nonexistent with IEMs. With headphones the pads shift and the headband stretches which absolutely causes acoustic differences. Arguably the drivers are a lot bigger too so there’s more of a credence to the theory that the large drivers take longer to reach their final displacement.
With IEMs #1 there are no pads(proper tips are essential I will say). #2 the drivers are so dang small and the coils move so little that probably just a few minutes of playtime if even that is enough to get the drivers to not really ever change

I have read on a KZ product somewhere on their web site about needing a few minutes of burn in time, on one of their IEMs. I have also read of very slight changes in normal speakers from burn in. (youtube video with measurements comparing drivers - with or without burn in, and comparing different kinds of burn in)

My view is - What is there to lose, When I'm off to sleep in the evening, every night for a few days or weeks, I'll burn in the new IEM, whether it makes a difference or NOT, better to do this than NOT to do it, just in case there may be an improvement. Costs me nothing but time, to "burn in".

 

[SteveL]

I just ordered a spare Salnotes Zero on Amazon for $15.99. I am really in love with how they sound, so that's where diminishing returns start for me.

 

[OK1]

I have amazing news. The KZ ZVX just arrived. My 1st KZ IEM. 1st thing to notice is the box is about three quarters the size of the box that came with the CCA CRA., and sensitivity is a bit higher 109dB/mW instead of 105dB/mW. Definitely looking forward to listening to these. Definitely.

I did something that subjectively has made my CCA CRA sound even better. Upsampled my Youtube and Spotify listening to 96K, instead of 48K.

Have not listened to the ZVX yet. Will only form impressions, after I've given it a few weeks of "burn in" and lots of auditioning and comparing with the CCA CRA.

I could not resist. I had to listen to the KZ ZVX's.

Labelling and connecting the cable : Maybe it's my eyesight (but I already use reading glasses) it was a bit difficult to read the left and right labels on the earpieces. But with at least a month with the CCA CRA's I've become more familiar with IEMs. so just by looking at them I could tell which was left and which was right. I had ordered a cable without a microphone so I had to use trial and error to fix the cable to the right earpiece. I'm working in a DAW, so I can use pan controls. There seem to be no labelling on the cables, to know which is left or right. Anyway I eventually got the cables connected the proper way, to the appropriate earpiece..

Size and fit : the ZVX uses a different colour and slightly different shaped eartips - black instead of white - still silicon looking but not foam. Definitely NOT foam. From my experience with the eartips of the CCA CRA's I immediately used the large eartips which came with the ZVX. They seem a bit smaller than the corresponding eartips on the CCA CRA, and definitely more comfortable, yet give the impression of a good enough ear seal.

The ZVX's are a metal shell, instead of the CRA's "plastic" shell with a piece of metal bolted on. ZVX smaller a bit in my opinion. Overall the fit of the ZVX reminds me of the expression fits like a glove - We'll find it difficult not to think of OJ, whenever gloves come to mind. These one fit very well. Very well indeed. From my experience with the CCA CRA, I bought one for my wife, so we each have a CCA CRA. Man this IEM hobby could get expensive, having to always buy her something nice to listen through. The metal shell does not feel as heavy cos its compact. Perfect fit for my ears. Definitely better fit that the CRAs.

1st impressions of the audio quality. There is no contest. The ZVX sounds definitely more resolving, more balanced, less fatiguing, more natural, has a wider soundstage, easier placement of audio sources, so much more lifelike, easier to listen to. With the CRA's they were very sensitive to the IEM insertion distance. The ZVX's are less sensitive to insertion depth, They stay where I place them, and I do not feel any significant change in frequency response from minor changes in insertion depth.

I am grateful that the CCA CRA's by their low negligible cost, gave me the courage to start investing in IEMs., but the ZVX is not in the same league. For not much more money. I think most people should be able to get one for $20 or less.. I was extremely happy with the CRA's, but there is no way I can go back to them. The ZVX does not have quite the same bass quantity as the CRA(probably cos it does not have the same kind of stethoscope blocking of the ear canals effect, but the bass it has is more accurate, and I can hear the bass better. The ZVX almost sounds a bit metallic in comparison. Just slightly - hard to describe. But overall - frequency extension from low to high, there is less of an impression that anything is emphasized, maybe just a tad upper mids, maybe just a tad. Things like pianos sound so much clearer - all the overtones are more complete.

I'm tempted to buy another ZVX for the wife. But that would be two CRA's unused in our home. Cos I really feel bad about returning the CRA's considering that there is probably not much profit in these IEM's for the sellers. Fortunately her use of earphones is occasional, and the CRA is OK. Much better than many headphones I have heard.

Don't think I'll be doing any burn in. I'd rather do the burn in, while I'm listening to them. Cos I cannot go back to the CRA's.

OK - final verdict, the ZVX is my new highly recommended entry level to acceptable quality IEMs. On AliExpress, including postage, they cost less than £10, if you buy the version without microphone cable.

They remind me of studio monitors like Genelecs, but without the harsh top end. The top end is extended, but in my opinion not overly hyped, actually smoothish and non fatiguing, just clear, like a good studio monitor - everything just sounds so much clearer. I mean everything, clearer, less harsh less distorting, than the CCA CRA's, takes things to a definite whole new level, of transparent ability to hear panning, distance, depth, realism, hearing more of the music, for what was put in the track. So glad I bothered. I am extremely satisfied with the improvement, over the CCA CRA.

This is going to be a journey, cos I'm wondering, how much more can this improve, cos I would say the difference B/W the CRA and the ZVX is NOT a small one. The clarity of the ZVX is on another whole level. A whole new level, for just a little bit more money. Instruments - e.g electric guitars sound SO MUCH better. You do not just hear guitar, but oh that sounds like a semi-acoustic, separation between instruments and voices, and placement in the 3D field - front/back, left/right is just on another level.

I wonder - how much better can listening get. Another massive Eureka moment with these IEMs. The start and stop of transients such as drums, is just undeniably better. These are definitely NOT the same drivers as on the CCA CRA. Now I have to go back and study the intrinsics of the entire KZ/CCA product sets, to understand their underlying technology progression. I can see myself buying at least 4 more IEMs of one description or another, over the next year or two, by the grace of God. If I have a windfall, could be 10 more and acquired much earlier. I am so pleased. All testing was on a TempoTec Sonata BHD, which I also recommend highly as the best value dongle DAC in existence. at this time. The ZVX allows me to hear just how good the BHD is, and vice versa.

So all that's left is for me to go back an listen to my entire set of reference tracks, and more. And just hear things that I have never heard before, yeah its like a veil has been taken off the music, and I can hear a lot more. A lot more. A whole lot more.

 

[OK1]

I find that with the CCA CRA's I was listening about 2dB lower (I'm using digital volume attenuation in my DAW) and the reason is the CCA CRA's were pushing the mids, and my listening was fatigued by these mids. With the KZ ZVX, I listen about 2dB higher, cos I'm not punished by a MID centric presentation. ZVX, a whole new level of listening, a whole new level, and this is the lossy Spotify. Lossless files would sound even better. Vocal clarity is better, everything is just better, I probably may never listen to the CCA CRA's ever again. The difference is huge. In my opinion.

 

[Somafunk]

Here’s how the CCA CRA graphs against the KZ ZVX,

Squiglink - IEM frequency response database by Hawaii Bad Boy

Compare hundreds of frequency response graphs between IEMs and earphones from manufacturers like Moondrop, Sony, 64 Audio, Fiio, and more.

hbb.squig.link

 

[mc.god]

Given what we have here, I'd have gone for a 7Hz Zero 2 instead, having not so boosted highs and measurements by Amir you can trust on (distortion included).
No wonder the differences you noticed between ZVX and CRA.

 

[OK1]

Here’s how the CCA CRA graphs against the KZ ZVX,

Squiglink - IEM frequency response database by Hawaii Bad Boy

Compare hundreds of frequency response graphs between IEMs and earphones from manufacturers like Moondrop, Sony, 64 Audio, Fiio, and more.

hbb.squig.link

Thank you.

1. On one hand the difference in the frequency response does provide some explanation of the difference in what I'm hearing between the CCA CRA and the KZ ZVX.
2. But it's beyond just frequency response. I could say with every confidence, at the risk of being proved wrong, the drivers of the ZVX cannot be the same as the CCA CRA, this is beyond tuning, far beyond tuning. There is a level of detail that I am hearing on the ZVX, that the CRA will never produce.

I started out listening to Lewis Capaldi's 1st album, which clearly showed the difference. Then based on Paul Wasabii's review of the ZVX, which confirmed some brightness I had already discerned from listening in what I described as the upper mids, in one of my recent posts, I did the following on the EQ for the ZVX.

2.1 Reduced the Low shelf from -3 dB to -1.5 cos the ZVX does not need as much attenuation, to produce a neutral result.
2.2 Added a Band : 8.2 K to tame some of the peakiness around 8K. Not much just -1dB, narrow Q.
2.3 Kept the minor attenuation high shelf - -1dB centered @ 8.2K

So with this EQ, it's such an amazing listen, like a pair of binoculars, and a microscope - so much more transparent than the CCA CRA's. But' the EQ is just refinement. The improvement in the drivers is the major bump in quality of the ZVX. Especially things like pianos, bells, synthesizers - It just sounds amazing, in comparison. Not sure if KZ is reading these reviews, cos the price went up in the last day or so on AliExpress. !! Value for money, the KZ, especially with the tweak of the EQ, in my case I'm using only three EQ bands, with relatively small changes, somewhat broad. I only have the CCA CRA to compare with (compared with something like the Apple Earbud - forget it, the Apple is from the dark ages - a prehistoric monster. In comparison the ZVX is clear for days.) My goodness, all manner of details.

I'm listening to Beyonce - 4, the album, and even at low volume, my goodness, all manner of details, all manner of little things, the horns are so realistic. Yeah every moment is like an OMG one. I could type OMG, over and over again. Pop music like Beyonce's has tons of little details I call ear candy, and its all now so clear. All the little harmonies and melodies and things I have never ever heard before - on my AKG K702's, or on speakers. Yeah I'll say it again, OMG, these are the most resolving things I have ever heard. And the stereo perspective is cohesive, everything is so well tied together, that extreme disconnected stereo has blended into one end to end virtual left to right vista. I could type CLEAR over and over. Detail without harshness (once that 8K peak is attenuated). That new driver is damn good. Wow.

Pop music is sometimes difficult to hear, cos there is a lot happening. But with these IEM's It has Beyonce's music completely under control - detail for days, without harshness. Drums are so much more precise.

I'd love to see in headphone reviews, measurements like impulse response, and distortion, for these KZ IEMs. The clarity of vocals, which was good on the CRA's just go to another level. I cannot hide my gushing praise for these ZVXs. WOW.

No more testing and no more tweaking of the EQ. I'm done. Now just listen and enjoy. Really pleased. Really really pleased.

 

[OK1]

Given what we have here, I'd have gone for a 7Hz Zero 2 instead, having not so boosted highs and measurements by Amir you can trust on (distortion included).
No wonder the differences you noticed between ZVX and CRA.
View attachment 380080

I think with EQ, without any prior knowledge of the tuning of the 7hz, I've independently done the 3 bands of EQ to approximate the frequency response of the 7Hz Salnotes Zero.

I do not have any tools to measure, but the next issue is not just about EQ, but the resolution of the driver. How much distortion there is, in the driver. Unfortunately I have not seen much in the way of distortion measurements for KZ/CCA headphones, here on Audio Science Review. I may be mistaken, but just from measurements alone, I have nothing to go by, if I wanted to choose an IEM based on anything beyond frequency response.

Most of the reviews, evaluations, and opinions tend to focus on FR. But sincerely while this is a factor, I think we must begin to go beyond this to look at the distortion issues, when comparing. Cos I think that is also where the quality lies. EQ, by and large we can make minor improvements, but we cannot do anything about drivers, and this is where I thing the 80/20 is, from this experience.

Especially when listening to pianos, electric pianos, my goodness, bells, hi hats, and my only complaint may be - where is the bass. But the truth is - the ZVX is showing me the truth, in a lot of pop music, or any other music, sometimes the bass is not as pronounced. It's saying is as it is, in a much better way that the CRA ever could. This clarity is way beyond just EQ. Way beyond. And way beyond eartips. Maybe the metal shell of the ZVX has less resonance. I am not an audio expert. Whatever the reason, beyond EQ alone, th ZVX is just miles ahead. Far ahead of the CRA, especially once I used EQ to deal with the worst offenders. Crystal clear audio - hear every word, even in complex pop vocals.

Moving on to listen to some jazz next.

 

[muza_1]

For $5-$7 (on sale) you should try the D-Fi.
With the Switch version ($7.50-$10) you can control the amount of bass, in the config with more bass it has about a dB less than the non switch version.

I personally like it more than the ZVX and is better looking it has a metal shell too.
To me the D-Fi sounds close to the KiwiEars Cadenza.

*Also it has been some speculation that the driver in the ZVX is not the same as when it came out, I really don't care about the drama but to me it sounds bassier than the graph suggest (got mine on an AlieExpress sale about 2 months ago).

 

[OK1]

Kind of Blue - Miles Davis, ZVX does not disappoint. Brings it to life. Unlike pop which is usually compressed within an inch of its life, this is now so much more enjoyable. Life like, and dynamics are wonderful, the difference between quiet and loud is so much more apparent. Loud can easily get too loud, but this is the kind of loud that makes you hold on for dear life, such an enjoyable thrilling listen. Clarity like real life. placement of instruments is something else. Clear yes, a little bright possibly, but I'd rather have the slight brightness, than dull.

From my time with live music, I know that when speakers are clear and the mix is clear, you can either lower the volume yet people will still hear well, or increase the volume quite a bit, cos without distortion, the ear does not as easily hear the cues that say this is too loud. Same thing is happening to the ZVX. Cos there is clearly less distortion, the ear can tolerate louder, for more intense dynamic critical listening, or lower than average listening levels, yet still hear clearly, for relaxed listening. Drums on the 1st track of this album on the right are so so clear. So so clear. And the piano sounds fantastic. Gone is that impression that - oh this was music recorded half a century ago - No way, sounds amazing as fresh as if it was recorded yesterday. Said something earlier, that the ZVX appears to remove a veil that had been placed on the music. 2nd track, on the album, things like the drummer' stick on the side of the snare drum, rim hits, wow. When you've been listening to something for several years, and then it comes to life like this. like the music is completely new, and fresh, as if it was recorded yesterday. You hold you breath and I think you finally get it - so this is what Hi-Fidelity is about. Those audiophile people are not wacky, there is something - actually a whole lot of out of this world pleasure to hifidelity listening. They are not out of their minds.How do you say WoW to every solo, or note in the entire track. I could almost reach out and touch the instrument or the musician. Almost. The veil is gone.

 

[OK1]

For $5-$7 (on sale) you should try the D-Fi.
With the Switch version ($7.50-$10) you can control the amount of bass, in the config with more bass it has about a dB less than the non switch version.
View attachment 380088
I personally like it more than the ZVX and is better looking it has a metal shell too.
To me the D-Fi sounds close to the KiwiEars Cadenza.

*Also it has been some speculation that the driver in the ZVX is not the same as when it came out, I really don't care about the drama but to me it sounds bassier than the graph suggest (got mine on an AlieExpress sale about 2 months ago).

You almost took it out of my mouth/mind. I was thinking to myself, maybe I better buy a few ZVX's and keep in storage, so if they change the "formula", I'll be in a good supply of this wonder IEM, for a few more years. That's how much I appreciate the improvement. Things I have never heard before, like the almost imperceptible brushes used by the drummer. Even at low volume, so clear. Almost thought there was some noise in the room, I'm listening. Never heard those brushes before on Blue in Green from Kind of Blue - Miles Davis - O my the piano sounds sublime. Dynamics repeatedly comes to mind, as the volume increases on loud notes, when this goes beyond just listening to "feeling". I am amazed by the rendition. Just amazed. On every instrument. Just amazed.

What will we do about KZ/CCA, with this reputed habit of changing their products mid stream? The challenge is - :

1. If you are an early adopter of any headphone, you usually pay a premium and are subject to initial bugs and issues.
2. You buy too late and KZ/CCA may have changed the "formula".

I wish I could buy every budget IEM out there, but even at under $10 per IEM, it would add up soon enough, to a tidy sum. Almost like the lottery, which I never play and do not advocate anyone playing, same with IEM's, there is always that temptation, maybe the next one will be it, that golden sample.

I think, from what I have heard, the consistency in manufacturing quality has become pretty high. I bought two IEMs and both sound balanced, look well made, and sound great. One sounds amazing.

One has to accept that - I will never have the best, cos there is always going to be one more headphone out there that I may never have heard for myself, even if I had all the money and time, to collect and listen to them all.

At the risk of missing out on so many wonderful IEM's, I think I'll stop with the ZVX, for now. Cos all I want to do now, is sit back and as time permits, listen to good music. I've forgotten I'm listening to a device, and my focus is on the audio/music. And in many cases hear the same albums - over and over again. The boredom factor seems to have reduced with the ZVX's. I can listen to things over and over and over and still want to hear them again. So now only two things to do - choose the music, adjust volume to taste, per track.