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IEM's - Where do diminishing returns start - cost wise? $10, $15, $20, $30, $50, $200, etc, etc

My thoughts exactly.
Personally I find the iems at around 20-50$ to be about as good as it gets. Throwing more money at a pair of iems may upgrade the build quality but more often than not, at least from my viewpoint, the sound quality takes a backseat or gets a weird “audiophile tuning”.
I recall very similar conclusions I have read on the web, to yours. I am convinced there is a point of diminishing returns, and hope, like you, through this journey, I also can find where mine is.

For fun I've just ordered a pair of Truthear Crinacle Zero Reds to play around with. Really looking forward to comparing them with my daily drivers as I have no doubt the Chi-Fi IEM revolution was, well, revolutionary.

Anyone use these with a bluetooth adapter they'd like to recommend?

What are your daily driver headphones, please - make and model? Thanks
 
In short there is no universal rule. My IEMs range from Shure SE535 (about 500 bucks) to SE315 (about 200) and now most often Sony WF1000XM5 (300). They all sound great. I did buy $1.8k IEMs and they didn't sound in any way or shape or form superior to the aforementioned models in any detectable way. Waste of $ even though highly touted by the audio press.
 
For fun I've just ordered a pair of Truthear Crinacle Zero Reds to play around with. Really looking forward to comparing them with my daily drivers as I have no doubt the Chi-Fi IEM revolution was, well, revolutionary.

Anyone use these with a bluetooth adapter they'd like to recommend?
By bluetooth adapter - do you mean a (desktop DAC, DAP, or dongle DAC) with headphone outputs which receives bluetooth and IEMs are connected to the headphone output, via normal length IEM cables(approx 1 meter long).

OR

one of these bluetooth tiny adapters, that sit behind the ears, or on the neck, behind the head and use very short cables (no longer than a few inches in length) to connect to IEM's? Typically these allow any wired IEM, to be adapted to bluetooth, so one can take most IEM's(that support detachable cables), and use them wirelessly.

Which please?
 
I think I'm coming to the conclusion that it's around $25 for me, too. I'm blown away by the sound I get from such inexpensive IEMs. A (mostly) quick story:

I was mainly an Etymotic guy for a long time. I still am for plane travel; there's nothing better for isolation (to me). They sound decent to me as is, but they really benefit from EQ. I wasn't using IEMs much at all after I stopped traveling professionally, though.

So... I went to CanJam a few years ago with no intent to try IEMs, just headphones, but I kept reading how great 64 Audio was. I tried four models without knowing anything about them (not even price), and came away really impressed with the U12t. Since my main experience was with Etymotic, hearing something so "full-bodied" or "lush" or whatever you want to call it was a real eye opener. Ear opener? Whatever. I later found out they were $2000. Yikes. No way I was going to own those, but it sent me down the path of looking for cheaper models with a roughly similar frequency response.

I've gone through quite a few in the sub-$100 category, all of which I like to varying degrees: Moondrop Aria, Kiwi Ears Cadenza, DUNU Titan S, and of course the better-known Crinacle collabs, and maybe some others I'm forgetting.

I bring all this up because I really like the Zero:2, and I happened to load up the frequency response graph compared to the U12t (Crin's measurements). Other than a very slight hump in the U12t around 600 Hz (1 dB or so), they measure very closely up to about 2.5 KHz, where the U12t has a rather odd pit centered around 3.2 KHz or so. I decided to try EQing the Zero:2 to the U12t graph as a target. Before anyone jumps down my throat, I know it won't be exact, and I'm not suggesting an EQed Zero:2 is "just as good" (whatever that means) as a U12t. I just wanted to evaluate general tonality with what I have available to me, and it should be a decent approximation for the frequencies that matter most.

I prefer the stock Zero:2 response. I don't think the hole in the U12t graph is as dramatic as it looks (at least to me), but I can definitely hear it, and I prefer it filled in. Just my taste, I guess. I'd love to actually do an A/B comparison in person with an actual U12t. Would I be as blown away by the U12t now as I was then, when it completely changed my perspective on what IEMs could sound like? No idea. But I have my suspicions.

The really great thing about the Zero:2's price? They make an easy gift. I've been buying some for family, and they've been really impressed, too.
 
Something has been niggling me for a few days. I've had the CCA CRA for two weeks, with some tucking in slightly of the high end and low end, with 1dB shelves(really almost negligible broad eqs, to tame the V-shape somewhat), I have been shocked, compared to any other headphones I have ever listened to :

1. These have revealed the most difference as I move from one track to another on an album, and as I move from one album to another, on my reference playlists. For example, If the bass on a song is tight with quick attack and decay, it sounds so different from another bass which is woolly with soft edges, same with every other sound on a track. Depth, how distant things are "virtually" and where they are in the left right panning, and what I would call texture of the sound, is it a percussive element like a piano, or a synthesizer. Like my ears ar like fingers which can "feel" the texture of everything I'm hearing. Cos the elements in the music sound so different, in their texture, smooth, distorted, percussive, ensemble, saturation, I'm not just hearing but "feeling" the music - not as a physical experience of strong vibrations, but an aural one.

2. This headphone has separated the well produced music, that was meticulously done - e.g Celine Dion's album - "A new day has come", from so many other albums that I had thought were decent - like Adele's 21 and 25.

Celine's - I'm alive - the precise start and stop of bass drums, percussions, synths, vocals, all separated and each so distinct in tone, everything reproduced with precision. Never heard anything like this. Man - that girl(now a lady) can sing, and tug at heart strings. My goodness. Visceral. I am definitely a sucker for a good ballad.

Rather than smear everything with the same veil, each element in everything I hear is presented as a unique entity, and the difference between one production and another, is revealed so startlingly - music that is precisely timed, shows this quality with ease.

I have not heard anything that so effortlessly allows the unique texture of everything to shine through. This is what I have been looking for, without knowing it existed. And achieved with almost no EQ, all it needs is proper sealing/placement in the ear.

With good music, i.e the source, a good well produced piece of music, I'm totally transported to another world, where I can hear every single detail, from all around me, above all, the listening is effortless, if the music is well produced.

I hope those who write all those reviews one reads, are also listening to well produced music, that will task the limits of resolution, of the headphones/IEM's they are reviewing. I sincerely hope. Otherwise their opinions of the headphones, are erroneous, cos its more based on the limitations of their reference tracks.

Reminds me of the world of photography, where the image is only as good as the lens. I remember the improvement in image quality as I moved from one old vintage lens to a modern lens. No way to tell how good the camera is, if the lens is not up to scratch, or the image is not in focus. No matter how good the camera is, that will not shine through if the lens is sub optimal, or the subject is not in focus, or the subject has very few features to be capture - like taking a picture of a blue wall with no details. (i.e not enough information to resolve anything interesting)
 
In short there is no universal rule. My IEMs range from Shure SE535 (about 500 bucks) to SE315 (about 200) and now most often Sony WF1000XM5 (300). They all sound great. I did buy $1.8k IEMs and they didn't sound in any way or shape or firm superior to the aforementioned models in any detectable way. Waste of $ even though highly touted by the audio press.

I have the Shure SE530, SE215Ltd and E5c, I don't use any of them now the SE530 I keep as a reminder not to go and buy without thinking based on hype, just wait a bit and see how it goes (I payed $850 after import taxes and delivery). EDIT. I tend to forget that I also payed for the E5c (don't remember how much but price was $500) Expensive lesson.
The first IEM I got was the E5c before that they were all buds, but as far as I can remember I didn't like it from the start but then just a few months after the SE530 came out.
The SE530 I got in 2003 before the Harman papers and use them for years and years thinking they were as good as it gets, I remember the first time I tried the Sony MH750/755 ($7) I could not believe my ears, real bass and treble in an IEM! That started my journey, I listen to the SE530 from time to time just for a quick sanity check.

I also had the opportunity to check some models from 64Audio ($1000 to $2500 I think) from a musician friend, I didn't like them for music listening but they might as well work for monitoring, I'm not a musician so I really don't know, also I tried the Thieaudio Monarch MKIII ($1000) from a friend for a brief time and while I really like them to me they were not worth the asking price.

After some decades and a lot of IEMs, this last years I learned that I should have follow the science since the beginning (or at least before going down the rabbit hole) I had to try various curves from manufacturers to reviewers, learn about equalization, follow hype trains, succumb to FOMO and throw money to the problem all to realize that if I start with the Harman curve and adjust first the treble (I'm treble sensitive) then the bass in some cases it takes me to right to my preference in others some other minor adjustments are necessary (but even if it were more complicated than that having a starting reference makes all the difference) but that is the nature of the hobby (dammed be Head-Fi).
 
Do you have multiple recs based on price point? In that case give me the mid tier and high tier choices please.
Moondrop EVO is the only chocie for recessed 2-pin that I know of, and reception has been mixed. If the ear hook form factor is not a hard requirement you would be more happy with Qudelix 5k. If you are open to some light DIY you can adapt the connectors of TRN BT20Pro after shaving off some material with a modeling knife. Fiio UTWS3/UTWS5 is the higher quality option, but you have to adapt to recessed 2-pin which isn't a stock option. Some pair the MMCX version a thrid party MMCX-to-2-pin adaptor, but this is not guaranteed to fit as well as a native recessed 2-pin connector.
 
I use the Qudelix, and ES100, and a bluewave get interchangeably. My preference is for the Qudelix because I like the EQ better but all three are great. The bluewave is the easiest to use and the ES100 is the least outlandish In terms of looks. Something I don’t like about the Qudelix is the actual buttons- it’s really hard to tell what’s going on with the buttons being nearly identical and flashing either red or blue at you. The soft is great, the hardware UI really sucks.
By bluetooth adapter - do you mean a (desktop DAC, DAP, or dongle DAC) with headphone outputs which receives bluetooth and IEMs are connected to the headphone output, via normal length IEM cables(approx 1 meter long).

OR

one of these bluetooth tiny adapters, that sit behind the ears, or on the neck, behind the head and use very short cables (no longer than a few inches in length) to connect to IEM's? Typically these allow any wired IEM, to be adapted to bluetooth, so one can take most IEM's(that support detachable cables), and use them wirelessly.

Which please?

Ah while I have no experience with the Qudelix and Bluewave(?), I do have an EarStudio ES100 however I probably should have been more descriptive in what I was looking for. I'm actually asking after the latter category - a tiny bluetooth adapter that plugs directly into the IEM earpiece and either sits directly behind the ear or is otherwise small enough to disappear.
 
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Ah while I have no experience with the Qudelix and Bluewave(?), I do have an EarStudio ES100 however I probably should have been more descriptive in what I was looking for. I'm actually asking after the latter category - a tiny bluetooth adapter that plugs directly into the IEM earpiece and either sits directly behind the ear or is otherwise small enough to disappear.
Excellent. Thanks for the clarification. I'm still new in all of this, and have never used bluetooth audio for anything in my life, not once, never. I do eventually think I'll get at least one or two, bluetooth audio things, someday.

With your clarification, pretty sure many others who understand what you need will respond. My only knowledge is that KZ have a couple of products for this :







It is amazing, what is available today, compared to 15 years ago. So much choice, so many configurations. But this implies so many things to check for - does it have the right PIN connections (0.75 or 0.78, etc, etc) for my IEM's)? Which bluetooth standard does it support. Does it support the Bluetooth Audio codec - I prefer?

Best wishes with your search. Do let us know what you end up buying and how satisfied you are with it. Thanks
 
The “fit” is where the buck stops. I have the $20 Truthear Zero:2 and it’s wonderful but it’s painful to wear for me. I love my Sony XBA-N3 in comparison - about $350 but they have the perfect fit and sound signature that suits me perfectly. YMMV.

Can you not change the eartips?
 
The “fit” is where the buck stops. I have the $20 Truthear Zero:2 and it’s wonderful but it’s painful to wear for me. I love my Sony XBA-N3 in comparison - about $350 but they have the perfect fit and sound signature that suits me perfectly. YMMV.

Also a long time user of the XBA-N3, wonderful sounding iem…….gawd knows why Sony discontinued it?.
 
The 7hz zero 2s with a cirrus logic dac pack way past its price bracket and is less the 50 bucks. Once your past construction they surpass many of the expensive 300-400 options I’ve tried. The best thing, if I loose or break them it’s simply no pain to get some more. In fact I may just get a spare set thinking about it.
 
Massive thanks everyone who has generously contributed opinions here. Really valuable options, I now have, to consider, albeit its making my research take a lot longer, cos there are so many options to consider.

At this time, it does appear that there broadly speaking are several thresholds, and it's difficult to set a price bracket, cos these items have sales, sometimes silly sales that skew their prices. Here are my perceptual categories

1. $15 or less - the CCA CRA belongs here

2. $20 or less - things like the Moondrop Chu II

3. $35 or less - things like the KZ PR1,PR2, PR3, KZ AS10 Pro, KZ ZS10 Pro X, KZ ZS10 Pro 2

4. $80 or less - things like the Moondrop Aria., Artti T10

Of course I must have left out so many headphones, cos there are probably at least 50 different well known IEM's in these 4 categories.

Looks like above $80, in the 1st place, there are relatively few people spending money on IEM's costing more. Unfortunately the ability to edit previous posts expires after a day or so, so it would be impossible to come back here and populate these categories, upon further research.
 
Have a look at this momentary snapshot of the frequency response from one of the songs on Adele's 19 album. Below 100hz there is almost no content - massive rolloff. and above 8Khz, there is not much content.

1719332892743.png


Here is another from one more song on Adele's 19 album. From a really lovely rendition of "Make you feel my love" Awesome intimate song rendition, but there is not much going on in the highs and lows.

1719333078989.png


My point is - what kind of music are earphone reviews based on. It would be impossible for anyone to come to any realistic conclusions on any headphone, if one was using mid focussed repertoire like this.

My informed suspicion is that, the variance in the reference music listened to, is responsible for reviewer subjective opinions to be all over the place, and sometimes inconsistent with each other.
 
One conclusive observation, ignoring the KZ and CCA brands, in 2024, over issues they had once upon a time with many reviewers, should be a thing of the past. I'm in love with my CCA CRA gen 2's. They are the best headphones I have ever heard. Period. The net result is - brand attachment. I've owned Toyotas, and they continue to be my number 1 recommendation, for automobile reliability - and best value in cars. If I were to buy another car (at this time I own no cars), I'd have no hesitation recommending Toyota. None.

I feel the same way about KZ/CCA. I cannot fault the CCA CRA - not one bit. Looks great, feels great, sounds great, fit is great for me, what else would I wish for - a balanced cable so I can hear what they sound like on my balanced 4.4 headphone outputs of the Tempotec Sonata BHD. and the cost of the CRA - typically less than $20, or much less, when on sale. I'm planning to buy two more for two members of my family.

The challenge with KZ and CCA is they have so many options, to choose from. I wish there was some wikipedia page, that helps novices like me understand the genealogy of their products, what begat what, like a tree diagram, for those of us coming into this IEM craze, only in recent times. Besides the CRA's for my family members, I'm likely to invest in at least two more IEM's from the KZ/CCA stable. Their value - audio quality/vs price, is undeniably the best. King of the budget brigade. And the final beauty of their products, is, unlike many other brands, all of their inventory seems to be available, old models, new one's. Now that is a huge distinction. A massive one.

I recall the frustration when evaluating what DAC dongle to buy, so many highly praised dongle DACs, by the time I searched for where to buy, they were NOT available. I do not know how KZ/CCA does this, but their products seem to be the most widely available. So also they got that one right.

Price, Value for money, availability - 3 great factors endearing me to KZ/CCA's.

But there is FOMO. I MUST buy something else outside of the KZ/CCA stable, like a Moondrop Chu II, and am highly tempted by the Artti T10. Too many temptations.

The value of KZ/CCA is hard to ignore. I think I'll get one or two more for myself, e.g KZ EDA balanced, or the KZ EDA entire set. At the very least, to be able to compare wih the CCA CRA's, and hopefully discover where, for me, diminishing returns start.
 
Also a long time user of the XBA-N3, wonderful sounding iem…….gawd knows why Sony discontinued it?.

Sony is.. fickle.

I lost one of it (darn MMCX connector on XBA-N3 - again Sony gonna do what Sony does) and had to buy it again from a random seller in Japan. I have several IEMs but none as good as these. Truthear Zero:2 Red comes close in tonality but the fit is so poor I can’t wear it for long.
 
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