Anton D
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That seems entirely fair.
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How Deep Must the Bass Be?
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I downloaded that as you recommended but I expired on the trial period and cancelled before credit card charges where applied to my account. It was awesome.
There is nothing about bass frequency and amplitude accuracy that is different from any other frequency-amplitude in the response spectrum.
Distortion and linearity is still the name of the game, and it can be measured. I'd assume when people talk about fat vs tight bass they talk about the distortion subwoofer drivers may go through, and how tightly they are controlled to follow the amplitude and frequency of the original (bass) signal. The big question is how much distortion is tolerable in the area under ... we are debating it... let's say 40Hz.
I'd say a poor "rogue" subwoofer is simply designed to add "bass noise" and somehow lives a life of its own (we have all heard it), while a better design can deliver on the accuracy to the original signal (if set up competently). We also know integration of bass isn't trivial. So it is a double whammy of good design of the bass speaker (aka sub) and the room adjustment that is even more critical with bass.
A great super-linear sub that is poorly integrated is just as bad and abhorrent as a cheap large sub that fires low notes in a lazy uncontrolled way.
Distortion and linearity is still the name of the game, and it can be measured. I'd assume when people talk about fat vs tight bass they talk about the distortion subwoofer drivers may go through, and how tightly they are controlled to follow the amplitude and frequency of the original (bass) signal. The big question is how much distortion is tolerable in the area under ... we are debating it... let's say 40Hz.
I'd say a poor "rogue" subwoofer is simply designed to add "bass noise" and somehow lives a life of its own (we have all heard it), while a better design can deliver on the accuracy to the original signal (if set up competently). We also know integration of bass isn't trivial. So it is a double whammy of good design of the bass speaker (aka sub) and the room adjustment that is even more critical with bass.
A great super-linear sub that is poorly integrated is just as bad and abhorrent as a cheap large sub that fires low notes in a lazy uncontrolled way.
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Okay so this is from low C on double basses and an organ. 32 hz essentially. Which fits the analysis you have presented.
Basic piston formula SPL = 112 + 10 * log(4 * pi^3 * Ro / c * (num * Vd)^2 * f^4) is for spherical wave (for half space btw). For a plane wave, the dependence of the SPL on the displacement of the piston is different. See also @René - Acculution.com treads about DBA and room gain.
I was not very interested in the practical benefits of a significant SPL below 10 hertz, if only because
in my system the natural cutoff is about 11-12 hertz.IMHO, in most cases, having a cutoff below 20 hertz is enough for hi-fi, as I wrote earlier.
"Big woofers that can go lower do better at the more common frequencies a little higher. I think that is actually what people are hearing."
That is exactly PART - and no small part - of what I am saying. I have no scientific data with which to answer your question, but my impression since adding IB subs two years ago is that 1) the range of 80hz-annoying is now authoritative, and it has revealed a lot of things in favorite recordings I did not know were present in the old system, and 2) that range includes a whole lot of music other than and including orchestra. Sub-sub bass matters, even if you do not play a 10hz 'tone.'
Weeb Labs
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I have written a simple Python utility which generates averaged frequency spectrum charts for any given input WAV. Here is a selection of tracks from my library.
My objective is always a flat 20Hz to 20KHz, relative to the Harman in-room target.
My objective is always a flat 20Hz to 20KHz, relative to the Harman in-room target.
That's awesome, do you take requests? If so may I request two James Blake songs: "Limit to your love" and "when we're older"
Adobe Audition 3.0.0 and 3.0.1 are essentially/(semi-officially??) free of charge. In case if you would be interested in the install files and activation method(s) of Adobe Audition 3.0.1, please simply PM me.
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How so, if I may?
Back to the "speed" descriptor for a sub, seems to mean different things to different people. Here's Josh Ricci's explanation in his Bass Myths section on his (former) site, data-bass.com:
"Often times people make the mistake that sound quality is in fact related to the woofers quickness, but in fact the woofer's quickness is exactly related to SPL. The faster the driver, the higher the SPL. There are two ways to change a woofer's speed. 1. Lower the frequency of the input its reproducing or 2. increase the volume. Sounds silly, but its true. There are many other factors that go into making a subwoofer sound fast or slow (boomy or tight) but that divulges into system design. What's important about this myth is that speed is an inappropriate concept of sound quality. "
From Audioholics similar list:
Pursuing the Truth: Larger woofers displace just as much air as small subwoofers by moving a lot less in and out. By minimizing the amount of in/out movement, the driver tends to behave in a more linear fashion. In general, the “speed” is a function of group delay. Larger subs do not have more group delay. However, larger subs do typically have lower distortion, can play louder, and can play deeper. There is no replacement for displacement. No turbos for subwoofers. On the other hand, to make small subwoofers linearly displace a lot of air, they often need very large motor systems with very big voicecoils. These large voicecoils can lead to more inductance and this can cause several response problems such as a peaking midbass, roll-off in the upper bass, inductance related distortion, and increased group delay (See figure 2 as an example of the effects of increased inductance on the response shape). This can be just as true of large woofers. To combat the effects of high inductance, specially designed linear motors can be made that include things like inductance rings or specially wound coils that lower inductance. "
"
"Often times people make the mistake that sound quality is in fact related to the woofers quickness, but in fact the woofer's quickness is exactly related to SPL. The faster the driver, the higher the SPL. There are two ways to change a woofer's speed. 1. Lower the frequency of the input its reproducing or 2. increase the volume. Sounds silly, but its true. There are many other factors that go into making a subwoofer sound fast or slow (boomy or tight) but that divulges into system design. What's important about this myth is that speed is an inappropriate concept of sound quality. "
From Audioholics similar list:
"9) Myth: smaller subwoofers are faster than larger ones. Big subwoofers sound slow and inarticulate.
Pursuing the Truth: Larger woofers displace just as much air as small subwoofers by moving a lot less in and out. By minimizing the amount of in/out movement, the driver tends to behave in a more linear fashion. In general, the “speed” is a function of group delay. Larger subs do not have more group delay. However, larger subs do typically have lower distortion, can play louder, and can play deeper. There is no replacement for displacement. No turbos for subwoofers. On the other hand, to make small subwoofers linearly displace a lot of air, they often need very large motor systems with very big voicecoils. These large voicecoils can lead to more inductance and this can cause several response problems such as a peaking midbass, roll-off in the upper bass, inductance related distortion, and increased group delay (See figure 2 as an example of the effects of increased inductance on the response shape). This can be just as true of large woofers. To combat the effects of high inductance, specially designed linear motors can be made that include things like inductance rings or specially wound coils that lower inductance. ""
Now, if you want a bit of subwoofer fun, read this loony review (and loony product, too) https://www.stereophile.com/content/wilson-loke-subwoofer
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What prevents you from publishing all this information in a new thread, so everyone gets it?
“I ate this cold habanero pepper from the fridge, it’s really hot”
“It can’t be hot if your fridge is working properly at 37F/2.8C unless you are saying that your food bends the laws of thermodynamics. LOL.”
“What I am saying is that when I experienced the habanero pepper, my tongue was on fire.”
“The flashpoint of vegetable oils is over 300C. Fire is an exothermic chemical reaction that is the combination of fuel, oxidizer, and heat. There is no way that your chewing and body temperature generated enough heat to start the chemical reaction known as fire.”
No one who calls a subwoofer fast or slow is suggesting that the propagation of the air is moving at a rate that is not the speed of sound. The hopeless rabbit hole comes from snarky replies…
There are two possibilities:
1) There is no difference between two subs — it’s all sighted bias.
2) The terms “fast” and “slow” are used to describe a subjective characteristic of the bass in a way that is independent from the amplitude of the velocity of air created by the subwoofer.
That example is a bit of a thought experiment. Once the motor stops the cone itself has non linearities…
I do not think anyone knows DEFINITIVELY what accurately captures the difference between fast and slow, but one interesting discussion is the phase interaction at the crossover:
I've listened to the track many times, but not since making changes; it's been a disrupted couple of weeks. And my calibrated mic stopped functioning, so the tuning has been on hold, I've been sick for the past couple of weeks and I don't enjoy listening when I have a head cold), so I've just been here posting away. I'm looking forward to hearing the track once the system has the next round of optimization dialed in!
Fun question!
Here's what's interesting, I don't talk about the bass extension with guests because They. Just. Don't. Care. At all. But it almost always gets noticed; either they comment on it explicitly, or they react positively to the passages with infrasound without necessarily knowing why. That's an anecdote that could support the value of deep extension with substantial output.
I'll share some examples of tracks across genres various depths of bass...
First up, here's the ambient noise in the room with the pass through to the mechanical room open for measurement wires (it could have been plugged but I was lazy tonight), laptop powered on with a loud fan 4' from the mic, and HVAC blower running.
Note: All of the following measurements were taken with Mini-DSP Umik-1 and factory calibration file (not great). REW RTA is showing the peak spl recorded during the averaging period. No smoothing applied. The SPL is not calibrated.
Album- Rutter: Requiem & 5 Anthems
Track 7- Requiem: II. Pie Jesu
The first verse, toward the end of the male choir joining, has infrasound that really moves people. Infrasound alone isn't enough, but when the overall composition is on point, the infrasound can be the icing on the cake. More people have asked to replay that moment, or reported chills, than any other demo track I play. Strong content down to 16hz.
Album- Remember When It Rained (feat. Judith Hill) [Live] by Josh Groban, Judith Hill
Track 1- Remember When It Rained (feat. Judith Hill) [Live]
Drums in the intro beginning at 17 seconds are impressive sounding. The 22hz output is wonderful.
Album- Hourglass by James Taylor
Track 4- Gaia
At 4:09 when the drums enter it becomes cinematic, and there's infrasound that adds to the percussiveness of the experience. In my opinion it also adds to the beauty. Meaningful (to me) output down to around 18Hz.
Album- Hozier by Hozier
Track 9- Work Song
The bass drops starting at 7 seconds go down to 22hz; the JBL subs alone don't reproduce the 18-22hz (the JBL M2s do). Strong output in the high 20hz range needed, and for me the last bit of wow isn't there without the SPL around 22hz.
And of course for a bass only demo there's always:
Album- Bass Mekanik Presents: Bassotronics by Bass Mekanik
Track 11- Bass I Love You
Not a beautiful song, purely a bass demo. Turn the treble all the way down and the bass all the way up (if you have tone controls) and strong infrasonic output down to I believe 8hz. This was measured with tone controls set to flat. The infrasound is both audible and moving if the system has enough extension and SPL capability. I'm note sure if I captured the lowest part of the song, but it doesn't really matter.
For general bass demos that demonstrate wonderful bass without going below 30hz these are some nice tracks:
Album- Bass Test by Bass Boosted HD
Track 3- Heavy Bass Piano
No meaningful infrasound, but if your subs have strong and deep (~30hz) output it can be impressive. Not beautiful per say, but impressive. This is a track that may convince someone they really don't need 20hz output for a compelling bass experience.
Album- I'm In The Mood For Love... The Most Romantic Melodies Of All Time by Kenny G
Track 1- You're Beautiful
It's fun to tell people that they haven't heard Kenny G until they've heard it with a good sub; they usually think I'm joking, but the bass line beginning at 20 seconds really makes the song. Strong output down to 32 or 33hz. If a system reproduces the deepest notes without rolling off it's a wonderful bass line.
Album- 1975 by Billy Raffoul
Track 1- Acoustic
Wonderful bass and nothing below ~47hz!
Album- Didgeridoo Spirit by David Hudson
Track 1- Rainforest Wonder
Just listen to that Didgeridoo... at 59hz!
Album- O-Zone Percussion Group: Bamba (La) by O-Zone Percussion Group
Track 10- Jazz Variants
The big bass drum is pretty fun and you get it all with 32hz!
While I believe well sorted bass is an absolute must for a top tier system, every aspect of the system really needs to be dialed in to bring out all the beauty of the music, not just the bass.
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I think you're spot on. I'm literally running the same subwoofer drivers (in a slightly differently tuned box) as the pro live venue systems and it doesn't sound the same as live kickdrum. Gotta be the mixing.
Bass always gets the short end of that stick IMHO.....except maybe someone like Marcus Miller....
You have experience with some pretty serious gear. Josh Ricci referred to the BMS drivers as somewhat of a modern (and superior) successor to the 2269h. The frequencies above 20hz are by far the most important to me, and that's what I optimized for; sounds like you've done the same. The 24" drivers were a secondary decision; I was on the fence, but the structure that became the enclosure was already being built, and given the relatively negligible cost of the 4 drivers (with a volume discount) in the context of a full basement renovation, I decided to install them. I REALLY enjoy them, but most of the enjoyment is getting a solid 18-22hz. The occasional 16hz organ note is fun too, but that's all pretty rare.
I'd be hard pressed to tell you it's a must do, but depending on your musical tastes, I do think there are times you would really enjoy what they bring as an add-on to your existing subs.
I am rather reluctant to do so, since Adobe has already stopped supports for Audition 3.0.0 and 3.0.1, this is also true for XiVero's MusicScope 2.1.0, even though both are still really excellent for measurements (and possible manipulations/modifications) of music/audio tracks.
I would like to support, however, only through our PM communication within ASR Forum, people who would like to use these two excellent software tools in his/her audio project based on his/her own responsibility (no supports from Adobe and XiVero) by sharing the installation files and methods I have been keeping.
EDIT:
Hello @MC_RME,
Are you seriously interested in using Adobe Audition 3.0.1 and XiVero MusicScope 2.1.0? If so, please simply PM me writing your wish. I just sent the detailed info to two of my ASR friends, and it would be very easy for me to send the same PM communication to you by copy-and-paste.
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