Help Combining Motu Ultralite Mk5-Spl 2Control-MiniDsp Hd

[DrSpan]

Hi everyone.
Hope you are doing superb!

I am hesitating cause i have a relatively good hearing but Electronics and Voltages etc are not my strong suit…..
My signal chain is Motu Ultralite Mk 5 interface -> Spl 2 Control monitor controller -> Output 1+2 to Active Monitors and Output Sub to Subwoofer

I ordered a MiniDsp Hd 2x4 processor but started reading its Specs and it can operate with an input of 2 or 4 Vrms.

The Spl Controller can output 21,3 Dbu so somebody told me this is around 8.5-9 volts?

So my Questions are:

1) How do i know when my Spl outputs 2 or 4 Vrms so i don`t exceed the allowed voltage on the MiniDsp? Is it a dangerous combination in the first place?
2) In order to have constant Highest resolution on the MiniDsp and not affecting it by having it receive Varying Voltages when it is placed after the output of a Volume knob
my first thought was to put it between the Motu and the Spl cause i have constant Level going from the Motu to the Spl and regulate Volume with the Spl.
But then i realized that i can do this and X-Over and Process anything i want but as soon as i go into the Spl (to which i could send Sat+Sub signals) it will logically be mixed
together inside the Spl. So i guess not the best solution.

Am i missing something ? I would much appreciate your opinions and advice cause i am a bit stuck inside my head and am not sure what`s the best solution

 

[Davide]

I'm a little confused.
What do you need the Spl 2 Control and the MiniDSP for?
Why don't you connect the mk5's outputs directly to your monitors and subwoofers?

 

[DrSpan]

I'm a little confused.
What do you need the Spl 2 Control and the MiniDSP for?
Why don't you connect the mk5's outputs directly to your monitors and subwoofers?

"What do you need the Spl 2 Control …..“ : The Spl because i find it very practical . I can turn off Sub or Sats individually in one second, i can add second speaker set,
I can dim volume with one button push, it has a fantastic Headphone amp or better said, two of them, it has a beautiful Volume know and it does not degrade sound.

I bought the Spl back in the day when i had my Ultralite Mk4 volume behave eradicaly. Like once i had a loud PEEEEEP sound and another the Volume jumped to Max
at 3 in the morning and i woke up everyone in the house . Since then i don`t trust Software based Volume controls.
The Spl solved all my problems and i can`t live without it anymore. I prefer a „immediate central override Volume option“

"and the MiniDSP for?“ : to experiment with room correction and also customize my monitor frequency plot to my liking

 

[Davide]

That volume control complicates things with room correction. Each speakers, incl sub(s) should have one logical channel to make a good correction, because you need to manage level and delay, but also magnitude/phase, independently.
With that device you can't.
With it you can correct everything like a normal two-channel stereo system, and the result is not necessarily bad, but I doubt that it is worth spending on the correction to this extent.
You don't actually need the MiniDSP (also it doesn't even have balanced connections) ... you can do everything upstream on the PC/Mac to which the mk5 is connected.
In which specific way, depends a bit on your use case (what software do you use).

 

[DrSpan]

That volume control complicates things with room correction. Each speakers, incl sub(s) should have one logical channel to make a good correction, because you need to manage level and delay, but also magnitude/phase, independently.
With that device you can't.
With it you can correct everything like a normal two-channel stereo system, and the result is not necessarily bad, but I doubt that it is worth spending on the correction to this extent.
You don't actually need the MiniDSP (also it doesn't even have balanced connections) ... you can do everything upstream on the PC/Mac to which the mk5 is connected.
In which specific way, depends a bit on your use case (what software do you use).

I see.

hmm. I am not a big fan of having everything on my computer. I am moving between countries and don`t want to have all corrections for one place stored
and then having to keep this in mind everytime i go somewhere else. I prefer "room dependent and computer independent treatment" if that makes sense.

I am not sure i get what you mean by "Each speakers, incl sub(s) should have one logical channel“ . I will be going inside the Dsp with the full stereo signal and the Dsp
has 4 Line preamps using which i will take channel 1+2 for the Power amp for the monitors and channel 3 or 3+4 for the subwoofer. I thought the point of the Processor is exactly this i.e splitting the signal like an active crossover.

I have 2 pairs of monitors. One pair are studio active ones but i want to move back to my old Diy made ones . The Diy are passive 2 way bookshelf speakers with very high quality x-over but no flexibility of adjusting anything Frequency balance wise in order to adjust to my room. Secondly , i made new sealed enclosures cause i only listen with subwoofer so i need a HP for them.
Lets not call it „Room Correction“ for a moment. Let`s call it "Tonal Character Adjustments for two speakers“.
What do you mean by „Magnitude/Phase“ ? You mean Volume level + Phase? I thought the MiniDsp can do all of this and also Delay? Hmm i need to read about it again.

"also it doesn't even have balanced connections“ while i love balanced as an idea if i connect an Xlr to Rca cable it will become unbalanced or at least i always thought so.
. I dont think it should matter for such small distances such as in my case < than 1m? I always thought Balanced as predominantly supposed to protect from catching noise when having long distances of cables or professional studios with 100 cables and electronics in a tight space etc both of which is not the case in my room-space.

Another thing i am thinking about is to buy a 4 channel power amp and completely ditch the passive x-over in my speakers. In this case also the MiniDsp would be the right thing i thought?


Taken from their site:

Time delay¶​

A delay of up to 80 ms can be applied to each output channel. To set the delay, click on the delay button for a channel. The delay value can be entered by moving the slider or it can be entered numerically. The up and down arrow keys can be used to change the delay in 0.01 msincrements.

Gain adjustment¶​

The gain of each output channel can be set to a value between ‑72 dB and +12 dB. (0 dB, the default, is unity gain or no change in level.) To set the gain, click on the Gain value of that channel. The gain can be entered by moving the slider or it can be entered numerically. The up and down arrow keys can be used to change the gain in 0.1 dB increments.

Invert¶​

Each output channel can be inverted in polarity. To invert, press the Invert button. The status is indicated by a change in color and label:

 

[Davide]

If I don't misunderstand, your volume controller only has 2 channels, with 2 selectable stereo inputs (they are not 4 inputs at the same time).
You need a 3 or 4 channel volume control, depending on whether you want 1 or 2 subs. I don't think it exists, you should build it yourself. But it's hard to avoid channels mismatch.

The MiniDSP does an AD conversion and then DA again, which isn't the best of life for audio quality... in addition to the fact that it is single ended, and therefore apart from the lower EMF immunity it also introduces more probability of ground loop.
Furthermore, the fact of having a Mk5 upstream makes it null and void... you could get a DAC for 100 euros and that's it. Or maybe even the MiniDSP has a USB input so nothing else is needed upstream.
The problem of volume control remains, but perhaps the MiniDSP does that digitally too.

You already have a Mk5 that solves all your problems. 10 analog outputs to create as many crossovers as you want. A single volume control, with zero mismatch between channels. A PC or Mac running the upstream calculations, when the audio is still in the digital domain.

If you're worried that the volume knob might fail, I understand. I got around the problem with a double digital control. The one on the Mk5 is fixed at the maximum value that my ears can tolerate and then I put a midi knob with which I adjust the volume in the DAW, where I also do DSP for room correction. If midi knob fails, the Mk5 will never go above the value it's set to, because I never touch its knob.

Regarding the fact that you don't want to "transport" the room correction, I can tell you that it is a preset. Clicking on one file rather than another is not a big inconvenience, it is already done normally.

Don't make your life more complicated than necessary.
My 2 cents...

 

[DrSpan]

If I don't misunderstand, your volume controller only has 2 channels, with 2 selectable stereo inputs (they are not 4 inputs at the same time).
You need a 3 or 4 channel volume control, depending on whether you want 1 or 2 subs. I don't think it exists, you should build it yourself. But it's hard to avoid channels mismatch.

The MiniDSP does an AD conversion and then DA again, which isn't the best of life for audio quality... in addition to the fact that it is single ended, and therefore apart from the lower EMF immunity it also introduces more probability of ground loop.
Furthermore, the fact of having a Mk5 upstream makes it null and void... you could get a DAC for 100 euros and that's it. Or maybe even the MiniDSP has a USB input so nothing else is needed upstream.
The problem of volume control remains, but perhaps the MiniDSP does that digitally too.

You already have a Mk5 that solves all your problems. 10 analog outputs to create as many crossovers as you want. A single volume control, with zero mismatch between channels. A PC or Mac running the upstream calculations, when the audio is still in the digital domain.

If you're worried that the volume knob might fail, I understand. I got around the problem with a double digital control. The one on the Mk5 is fixed at the maximum value that my ears can tolerate and then I put a midi knob with which I adjust the volume in the DAW, where I also do DSP for room correction. If midi knob fails, the Mk5 will never go above the value it's set to, because I never touch its knob.

Regarding the fact that you don't want to "transport" the room correction, I can tell you that it is a preset. Clicking on one file rather than another is not a big inconvenience, it is already done normally.

Don't make your life more complicated than necessary.
My 2 cents...

"If I don't misunderstand, your volume controller only has 2 channels, with 2 selectable stereo inputs (they are not 4 inputs at the same time).“
It is 4 inputs at the same time if you want to. I even asked Spl if i can let both pairs activated. The big downside is that they simply get mixed together before the output.
So placing the MiniDsp between Mk5 and Monitor controller is not really possible cause the Sat+Sub will get summed up.

"You already have a Mk5 that solves all your problems. 10 analog outputs to create as many crossovers as you want. „.

i often use outboard gear . I dont have 10 free outputs many times but i find your ideas food for thought.
I might be able - could live with using an extra pair for the subwoofers. Like 1+2 = Sat and 3+4 Subs.

"If you're worried that the volume knob might fail, I understand. I got around the problem with a double digital control“

Could you elaborate on this ? Not sure i understand. You mean you have Linked 2 pairs of outputs or what exactly?

"The problem of volume control remains, but perhaps the MiniDSP does that digitally too.“
This i also see as the biggest issue basically. Tbh i have not researched about it but wonder if there is a decent Controller that has 4 Inputs and 4 Independent outputs
that are being controller by one Know all in parallel. This would be amazing
"MiniDSP does that digitally too.“ my plan was to send the main output of the Spl to the MiniDsp and then find a healthy gain structure between the two.
Theoretically i would have a bit lower resolution at low volumes.


„All the X-overs you want“ you mean by using the Motu Dsp Eq ? I have never touched those believe it or not. I am not even sure i know what they look like
The only thing i ever touch is the Input-Output gain sometimes.


I will have to re-read the manual i think but this time read all the parts i skipped in the past cause of non interest. Like almost all included software

But man this hurts cause then i could not really use the Spl. The volume knob alone is worth Gold.
I hear you and i find the idea great but don`t know if i can let it go.

Thanks for your 2 cents till now. They actually help

 

[DrSpan]

If I don't misunderstand, your volume controller only has 2 channels, wi…….

I

I took your "Don't make your life more complicated than necessary. „ and thought about it and you were right. I tend to do that.
So i decided to ditch the MiniDsp and cancelled my order. Took a look for the first time of all the Mk5 internal or better said CueMix5 Fx.
I could solve it after finding the Spl Volume 8 which has 8 independent channels but then i would need 2x 25 Db format „octupus“ Xlr adapters hanging out
and slowly realized i am going too far and running in a circle.

The Eq on the Main outputs of the Mk5 unfortunately is a bit Non flexible for what i imagine-wish for but it is a lot better than i thought.
It baffles me that i never thought of this cause i had somehow missed the fact that it has an Eq on the mains and not only the other channels.

For the future i am still going for the MiniDsp but i found that what i need is either the MiniDsp Flex 2+4 or better 2+8.
This is more like a Preamp with Volume control and 2 in and Dsp processed 4 outputs . It even comes in a Balanced version (also Reviewed hier on this site)
However if i decide to go the path of completely active speakers then its better to get the 2+8. This way i could activate everything up to a 2x 3 way speakers plus 2 subwoofers only downside there is no balanced version.
It costs quite a chunk of change though so for now i call it a day.

The Motu eq`s are not flexible enough for building active multi way speakers cause it only has 4 bands and no phase adjustements and not even a steepness for
the Lowpass. It looks like 12db/oct at first glance i would say?

But for now i wanted to thank you for stopping me and giving me time to re-think.

 

[Davide]

I'll explain my setup that I do first.

I have a Mac with a DAW (Kushview Element).
In the DAW I loaded the Dirac Live room correction plugin, which also acts as a crossover for the subs.
I connected a physical Midi Knob to the Mac which controls the level of the Dirac Live plugin, and therefore acts as a volume control. The mk5 has the master volume set to -12dBFS, corresponding to about 100dB SPL in my system, and I don't touch it. I use the Midi Knob to control the volume. In this way I don't wear the mk5's knob and I don't risk losing my hearing if the Midi Knob fails because the mk5 is set not to exceed 100dB SPL.
The DAW receives audio from the mk5's toslink input, to which I have connected a streamer (Wiim mini), but with loopback software I can also send audio from other Mac applications.
With the CueMix software, or directly in the DAW, I can choose which outputs of the mk5 to send the audio to, so I can connect different systems to it, including headphones (and each output has an independently controlled level, so switching is practical).

Exactly all the functions you need I think, without expensive hardware, that also penalizes signal integrity.

The DAW configuration is saved in a preset file, so I can create different configurations depending on the environment I am in and load them with one click.

If the DAW doesn't seem practical to you, there are other software that allow you to do crossovers and load correction filters. Here on the forum we have a summary thread.

Unfortunately Cuemix doesn't allow you to create serious crossovers... I also don't use it for DSP at all.

PS. Of course, one day a bad firmware update of the mk5 can alter the master volume setting and my ears will be blessed. But we're talking about Motu... not the latest audio hardware manufacturer out there. So I sleep peacefully.
To avoid risk, I also added two pads between the mk5 and my amplifiers to reduce the digital attenuation necessary for normal listening, and also improve SNR/DNR.

 

[DrSpan]

I'll explain my setup that I do first.

I have a Mac with a DAW (Kushview Element).
In the DAW I loaded the Dirac Live room correction plugin, which also acts as a crossover for the subs.
I connected a physical Midi Knob to the Mac which controls the level of the Dirac Live plugin, and therefore acts as a volume control. The mk5 has the master volume set to -12dBFS, corresponding to about 100dB SPL in my system, and I don't touch it. I use the Midi Knob to control the volume. In this way I don't wear the mk5's knob and I don't risk losing my hearing if the Midi Knob fails because the mk5 is set not to exceed 100dB SPL.
The DAW receives audio from the mk5's toslink input, to which I have connected a streamer (Wiim mini), but with loopback software I can also send audio from other Mac applications.
With the CueMix software, or directly in the DAW, I can choose which outputs of the mk5 to send the audio to, so I can connect different systems to it, including headphones (and each output has an independently controlled level, so switching is practical).

Exactly all the functions you need I think, without expensive hardware, that also penalizes signal integrity.

The DAW configuration is saved in a preset file, so I can create different configurations depending on the environment I am in and load them with one click.

If the DAW doesn't seem practical to you, there are other software that allow you to do crossovers and load correction filters. Here on the forum we have a summary thread.

Unfortunately Cuemix doesn't allow you to create serious crossovers... I also don't use it for DSP at all.

PS. Of course, one day a bad firmware update of the mk5 can alter the master volume setting and my ears will be blessed. But we're talking about Motu... not the latest audio hardware manufacturer out there. So I sleep peacefully.
To avoid risk, I also added two pads between the mk5 and my amplifiers to reduce the digital attenuation necessary for normal listening, and also improve SNR/DNR.

The Midi Knob is a great idea. Will take a look at one-try one out.

Your setup makes sense. For my taste it is a bit too many things involved. I have trouble concentrating many times and also am forgetful , especially on
„non priorities“ as for me setting Speakers up is something i want to do once and ideally almost never touch again.

"there are other software that allow you to do crossovers and load correction filters“ still if i go active speakers i need 6 or 8 physical channels.
The Motu is amazing but i dont see using 6-8 of its outputs simply to have a speaker system.

I am planning on constructing either 2 or 3 way Active speakers in the future. This means i need 4 or 6 very flexible channels for the Monitors alone + 1or 2 for Subs.
For me the MiniDsp 2+8 is the best solution because it has a Volume Knob, enough outputs for driving an active speaker with Tweeter , Mid, Woofer + 1 sub on each side
and software that is already there matched and customized all working inside a little box of which the measurements show that it has more than good enough quality
at least in my opinion. I am not someone who claims i hear a difference from 24/48 to 24/96 and similar.
If i set this up i know that regardless of which of my laptops i connect or what happens , it will always be „the speakers section“ while the Motu can then have all its I+O free for music and mastering purposes.

its not like your solutions are not brilliant , they are just not how my brain works. Our interaction made me see things clearer and take my time
and i concluded that for now i have enough to survive the next months and later in the year i will see what speakers i want to build and move on.
I realized its a beautiful luxury „problem“

So thank you for the whole input !

 

[Davide]

Perhaps a Minidsp Flex is suitable for the freedom you are looking for.

 

[DrSpan]

Perhaps a Minidsp Flex is suitable for the freedom you are looking for.

Taken from my previous response to you a bit higher in the thread:
"For the future i am still going for the MiniDsp but i found that what i need is either the MiniDsp Flex 2+4 or better 2+8.
This is more like a Preamp with Volume control and 2 in and Dsp processed 4 or 8 outputs . It even comes in a Balanced version (also Reviewed hier on this site)


It is but for now as i said, i am taking it slowly cause the Flex 2+8 is 800 euros. Maybe later in the year.
Cheers my friend!

 

[Davide]

Nice to have helped you. Good music!

 

[DrSpan]

Nice to have helped you. Good music!

Good music indeed ! For all of us!

 

[DrSpan]

Nice to have helped you. Good music!

Man you brought me luck !

today i looked out of curiosity into ebay and found a MiniDsp Flex 2+4 Balanced +Dirac (which i doubt i would use but nice to have as. bonus ) for 530 euros, used in my own city. Just picked it up.
Perfect condition

Happy! Now lets see if this is the answer to my path . Fingers crossed

 

[Davide]

Man you brought me luck !

today i looked out of curiosity into ebay and found a MiniDsp Flex 2+4 Balanced +Dirac (which i doubt i would use but nice to have as. bonus ) for 530 euros, used in my own city. Just picked it up.
Perfect condition

Happy! Now lets see if this is the answer to my path . Fingers crossed

Very lucky!
I recommend you try the Dirac... it does its job.

 

[DrSpan]

Very lucky!
I recommend you try the Dirac... it does its job.

Cool.
Just setting it up in the next hours-days..
Could you give me your opinion on one last thing?

Connecting Mk5 to MiniDsp Flex. I could go Optical or Balanced. Pros and Cons or better said what would you do in my position?
Last time i used optical was in the 90s and minidisc

 

[Davide]

Cool.
Just setting it up in the next hours-days..
Could you give me your opinion on one last thing?

Connecting Mk5 to MiniDsp Flex. I could go Optical or Balanced. Pros and Cons or better said what would you do in my position?
Last time i used optical was in the 90s and minidisc

You don't need the Mk5 to send signal to the Flex, it has USB and connects to the PC/Mac.

 

[DrSpan]

You don't need the Mk5 to send signal to the Flex, it has USB and connects to the PC/Mac.

Hmmm. But this means that all D/A conversion of files when i am exporting-rendering will take place in the MiniDsp unless i choose the Mk5 every time.
I trust the D/A chip of the Mk5 more when it comes down of printing final audio files tbh or am i seeing it wrong?
My setup in the Daw is always centered around the Mk5

Second issue is i registered on the MiniDsp site and i cant download anything. I go to User Downloads and there are no real DL links?

Is it because they need to“Verify“ me ?

 

[DrSpan]

Hmmm. But this means that all D/A conversion of files when i am exporting-rendering will take place in the MiniDsp unless i choose the Mk5 every time.
I trust the D/A chip of the Mk5 more when it comes down of printing final audio files tbh or am i seeing it wrong?
My setup in the Daw is always centered around the Mk5. I want the Flex only as a Monitor Volume and Management system. Not messing with conversion

Second issue is i registered on the MiniDsp site and i cant download anything. I go to User Downloads and there are no real DL links?

Is it because they need to“Verify“ me ?