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How Deep Must the Bass Be?

Bugal1998

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Well the OP specifically said heard, and not felt. Leaves out infrasonics in movies etc.
Candidly, no they didn't, and no it doesn't.

To clarify, I don't disagree with most of your objective points, in fact we agree almost completely on the objective topics (audibility, tonality, etc., even posting some of the same information), but I do believe you have fundamentally misconstrued the OPs statements. If I'm misunderstanding you, feel free to correct me!

In summary, you seem to feel the OP wants to limit SPL to avoid shaking things, ruling out music and movie infrasound, and only wants 20hz (or higher) and above. But look at what was actually said:

I'm interested only in the lowest frequency that can be heard, not just felt, regardless of how high the spl level needs to be for that to happen.

He said heard and not "just" felt which implies that heard "and" felt is acceptable. He's interested in what can be heard "no matter how high the SPL needs to be".

I do not care about the room vibrating or things in the room vibrating and making their own sounds, I only care about what I can hear that is emanating from the speaker.


Oh, in a similar vein, let me ask people's opinions on the Danley DTS-10 and the fact in general that Danley seems to think frequency reproduction down to something like 5 or 10 Hz is important. Do you think so? In fact, does anyone know if the DTS-10 or any other Danley speaker being sold really outputs loud enough spl at subsonic frequencies to even be considered loud enough to make a difference?
[...]

Let me also add that when in my previous posting here I stated that a speaker that was designed for me by an acoustics professor went down lower in the bass than the speaker system I designed as a product, I was listening not to music or movie sound tracks, but to a sinewave signal generator. Nevertheless, to my ear the pure tones at or below 30 Hz did sound "musical" to my ear and would definitely be something I would like to hear reproduced if it was actually in music or a movie soundtrack I was listening to.

But if what I was actually hearing was not the fundamental but was harmonic distortion, then this all goes out the window.

The OP is exploring whether or not a Danley DTS-10 gets loud enough to make a difference at 5 to 10hz; we clearly cannot rule out infrasound for the OP off hand (I actually missed the movie reference in my first reading).

The comment about "musical" does make me think the OP wants tonal sensation, so 20hz is probably the limit, but they really need to test that for themselves to see what they enjoy.

I was thinking of driving about an hour to where there is an Organ with a 16Hz pipe and listening to it but then it occurred to me that if I did hear the 16Hz pipe and it sounded "musical" to me, how would I know if it was the 16Hz I was enjoying or one of the harmonics? Same problem I guess listening to a speaker or headphone-again, how do I know it I am enjoying the fundamental or a harmonic? If I'm only hearing, say, the harmonics, then I don't really need a speaker to reproduce the fundamental, just the harmonics.

Even if the OP decides they're interested in infrasound, they'll have to decide for themselves if there's enough movie and music content to be worthwhile; while there may not be a lot of infrasound in recorded content, it's not zero.

As I said, we're in near lock-step on the objective facts, we differ a little on the amount of bass content below 40hz (I think there's plenty) and the threshold of where returns no longer justify additional investment (I'd say 20-25hz, you say 40hz), but those are purely subjective assessments and there's no need for us to agree.

Hopefully we're now also in agreement on the OP's stated objectives.

Edit: Brevity
 
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rdenney

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The whole fast speaker thing when related to transients means to me quickness in following a fast change in signal, rather than accurate movement with respect to a signal (which minimizes ringing after the signal has quieted). Fast-changing signals just aren’t a thing with subs, or shouldn’t be. They shouldn’t even reach the driver.

Post-signal oscillation (ringing) is always distortion, however, and usually appears as a resonant overtone. Read: harmonic distortion. Crossovers are filters and filters can also ring, plus cone inertia is what it is if it’s not well-controlled by amplifier power and the power of the voice coil motor, plus the damping of the driver.

A tight bass for me means minimal resonant ringing.

Rick “but what do I know?” Denney
 

audiofooled

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Yeah, there's nothing "fast" in bass frequencies. Transient signals can be complex and nearly full range, but the job of a subwoofer is so slow you can interrupt it by hitting the mute or pause button so you hear only the upper frequency range of the signal.

It's all about sub integration, room modal behavior and SPL. Crossover, setup and room acoustics being equally important. What may be altering the perception is SPL in itself in reaction to body's acoustic impedance. In room people perceive a combination of lots of waves which are bouncing and standing. Some frequencies are bouncing off walls, some of body, some are passing through and causing various subjective experiences with respect to the duration of the signal.

Shorter transients reaching low in frequencies, as in a good kick drum recording, or an artificial pitching down sinewave signals found in electronic music, can be tangibly perceived as a single "punch" in the solar plexus area, although the subwoofer cone itself may have moved in and out a dozen times. But there's certainly an SPL threshold for subjective effects of this kind (read displacement and amplifier power). Some subs can indeed be inferior in this regard, maybe tuned too low for their displacement and power handling capabilities, or just plain incompetent design which is not too uncommon. Or good sub(s) but poorly integrated, or main speakers too small for the listening distance so you have sub bass without any mid bass, poor room acoustics, I guess anything goes. The myth lives on...
 

Purité Audio

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IME ‘slow’ subs are usually just poorly integrated, and no attempt to correct any added room gain, thus ‘boomy’ or ‘one note’ bass.
I have never heard properly integrated subs sound slow just seamless.
Keith
 

Blumlein 88

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Candidly, no they didn't, and no it doesn't.

To clarify, I don't disagree with most of your objective points, in fact we agree almost completely on the objective topics (audibility, tonality, etc., even posting some of the same information), but I do believe you have fundamentally misconstrued the OPs statements, perhaps to conform to your personal world view. I'll explain, and of course, if I'm misunderstanding you, feel free to correct me!

In summary, you seem to feel the OP wants to limit SPL to avoid shaking things, ruling out music and movie infrasound, and only wants 20hz (or higher) and above. But look at what was actually said:



He said heard and not "just" felt which implies that heard "and" felt is acceptable. Further validating that point, he's interested in what can be heard "no matter how high the SPL needs to be". There is literally nothing in those statements that rules out infrasound--as you have stated--which we both know can be audible (though not tonal); rather the OP's statements would seem to be inviting an exploration of infrasound. Whether they want audible but not tonal is something only the OP can decide for themself.


In the context of the OP's prior statement this can reasonably taken to mean 'shaking isn't a goal, but if there's audible sound from the speaker then that's ok.' If it means, "no shaking" then it's internally inconsistent with the statement "regardless of high the SPL level needs to be".



The OP is exploring whether or not a Danley DTS-10 gets loud enough to make a difference at 5 to 10hz; therefore we clearly cannot rule out infrasound for the OP off hand. Further, they explicitly state they want 30hz and below reproduced in music and movie soundtracks (I actually missed the movie reference in my first reading). Their concern is whether they're hearing the fundamental or the harmonic; they need to do their own testing to determine for sure, but if they have normal hearing, they should be able to hear the fundamental down to 2 or 3hz. Remember, they are interested in what can be heard no matter how high the required SPL.

The comment about "musical" does make me think the OP wants tonal sensation, so 20hz is probably the limit, but they really need to test that for themselves to see what they enjoy. They are put off by rattles (as am I!), but rattles can, and in my personal opinion, should be tracked down and eliminated (hard to worry about THD and SINAD when the room is singing and buzzing).


Yet another explicitly stated interest in determining the audibility of infrasound vs harmonics for themselves.

Even if the OP decides they're interested in infrasound, they'll have to decide for themselves if there's enough movie and music content to be worthwhile; while there may not be a lot of infrasound in recorded content, it's not zero.

As I said, we're in near lock-step on the objective facts, we differ a little on the amount of bass content below 40hz (I think there's plenty) and the threshold of where returns no longer justify additional investment (I'd say 20-25hz, you say 40hz), but those are purely subjective assessments and there's no need for us to agree.

Hopefully we're now also in agreement on the OP's stated objectives.
Yes, we are in more agreement than not.
 

Blumlein 88

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About slow bass, as a long time user of panels, and only rarely with great effort getting subs to integrate well with them, some speakers/subs do have what I'd subjectively call slow bass. Big panels usually have fast bass (but also sometimes not much bass). Lots of panels have a slightly elevated upper bass and slightly depressed lower midrange. Does this with a slow roll out to diminished bass give it the impression of more bass than it has and yet it is very fast? Does the fact it may be sort of resonant with room modes to have decent upper bass with good positioning combine with its dipole nature which doesn't excite all the room modes also let it sound faster?

Slow and fast bass is not physically descriptive, but it is perceptually correctly described.
 

thecheapseats

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32-foot stops can play 16 Hz at the fundamental, though it depends on the stop design as to how much fundamental. An open diapason's fundamental is strong compared to the harmonics, but some testing shows that even removing the fundamental doesn't change the perception of the sound. By strong I mean 10-20 dB stronger than the next highest harmonic, not necessarily stronger than the sum of the upper harmonics. A closed 32-foot diapason (which is more like a flute) would only be audible in the harmonics, but I doubt there are many of those (just as there are only two organs with 64-foot pipes, and those absolutely depend on the harmonics to be heard at all). The amount of air that would be needed to make it felt would unmanageable, though it can certainly be simulated with electronics. As with a tuba, we overestimate the importance of the nominal fundamental frequency in producing the characteristic sound. But see my note below about acoustic performance requiring the effects of the space in which it is performed to sound natural and desirable.

For example, there is one well-known modernist tuba solo work that includes a 16-Hz "pitch." This is the double-pedal of a contrabass tuba in C (which is the standard orchestral tuba in American orchestras). It cannot be produced using a buzz by anyone I've ever heard, and most performers simulate it with flutter-tonguing. There's no way that includes even the slightest measurable fundamental, given that it's a series of thumps at 16 Hz, and not a continuous oscillating vibration.

I have two standard tests for low-frequency response. One is the bass drum hit in the opening of the third movement of Gustave Holst's First Suite for Military Band, as performed by the Cleveland Symphonic Winds on a Telarc recording made in the late 70's. I have it on vinyl and later bought it on CD to get the full effect of that one drum strike. Telarc was showing off with the way they recorded the bass drum, particularly when they reissued it on CD by my recollection, and it had a reputation for damaging speakers. In my case, it was the recording that first shredded the rotted foam surround on my Advent NLA's, at least the first time that happened maybe ten years after I bought them (I've replaced the surrounds several times on those speakers).

The other is also an old recording from the 70's--the Merlin the Magician track from Rick Wakeman's King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table. The Moog solos (there are two) go low. I'm not sure quite how low, but lower and louder than most acoustic instruments that sustain recognizable tone and pitch.

I own several dozen recordings of tuba performance, and none of them test the bass response of a system as much as those two recordings, and certainly not the recordings of the Kraft Encounters II that includes that 16-Hz double-pedal.

Prokofiev 5th? Where? Zarathustra starts with a 32-foot diapason organ stop drone that most people, even when performed live with a large organ, hear only as its harmonics. But the lowest note in the Prok 5 that I recall is the low E in the tuba at the start of the slow movement, barely over an octave below the bass clef. Even I can play that. The Prok 7 has a low C#, and Holst's Planets goes down about that far. Other examples down to the bottom of the 1.5 octaves below the bass clef are not that uncommon. Some band works, including a Percy Grainger piece that I just performed (Children's March), has pedal Bb (~28 Hz), which you won't hear unless the band's tuba player on the low part has professional training. (I don't, but I was playing the upper part, thank God). There is very little fundamental in the sound of the pedal range of a tuba, no matter what tuba players think. The contrabassoon goes about down to a nominal 28 Hz with a good player, but with even less contribution from the fundamental. Low F the octave below the bass clef is within the reliable range of most amateurs, though if you want it loud, don't expect it to have a lot of fundamental in the spectra.

But Koyaanisqatsi is in a class by itself for the demand it makes on the two tuba players. Warren Deck and Sam Pilafian (RIP) played on the original recording, and that level of world-class performer is what that music demands. Still, it didn't go below the 28-Hz pedal Bb and, still, the sound is dominated by overtones.

As I mentioned elsewhere, I helped a buddy set up his new 7.2 system that uses a large (and expensive) Marantz DVR and all Revel speakers, including the subs. (Performa-class Revels, and the subs have 12" drivers and kilowatt amps.) After we balanced the system using Audessey (however that is spelled), it didn't play that Wakeman Moog solo noticeably more impressively than my system at home with Revel F12's (no subs) and a large amp. That material was made for vinyl LP's so it probably didn't go below about 30 Hz. Those subs are capable of much lower, but the music we listened to doesn't ask for it. (I didn't have my REW stuff with me, so I couldn't check the subs for how well they cancelled room modes. But the system and room sounded very good.)

But there is one question only hinted at so far, and that is: How much of the performance space's room resonances do we want to hear in orchestral performance? Sometimes, that low rumble is what contributes to the characteristic sound of a concert hall, and it's good when a recording captures that ambience in addition to what the instruments produce. Yes, sometimes what contributes to the rumble is the air handlers and the outside traffic, but in my house at least, the air handler hums along at 120 Hz. I like rock music that is recorded dry to maintain good clarity, but classical composers didn't write their works for outdoor performances.

I've heard systems with big subwoofers set up the way Sean Olive's inexperienced test subjects seem to prefer (referring to the graph upthread), and for me those systems sound boomy and unnatural. My reference is live performance. I want accurate bass, but I'm not one to start cheering when it is emphasized unnaturally.

Rick "much ado about nothing" Denney
Great post with good citations and low-freq information from orchestral repertoire to recorded electronics - Thank you...

Just curious - as the tuba world is rather small - did you ever know or converse with Roger Bobo (principal tuba - L.A. Philharmonic Orch.) who passed earlier this year?...
 
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fpitas

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Google "transient response."

Maybe my wording was inelegant. Shouldn't be controversial. (I think you can even measure it.)
You can measure a driver in a box, but once you account for a crossover and the effects of the room the situation changes.
 

Bugal1998

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I have written a simple Python utility which generates averaged frequency spectrum charts for any given input WAV. Here is a selection of tracks from my library.

View attachment 325021

View attachment 325023

View attachment 325025

My objective is always a flat 20Hz to 20KHz, relative to the Harman in-room target.

Handy! Any chance it could be easily modified to show maximum values at each frequency? That's what speakers are actually tasked with playing back.

Edit: With no smoothing applied, if that's not how the script functions currently
 
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Weeb Labs

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Handy! Any chance it could be easily modified to show maximum values at each frequency? That's what speakers are actually tasked with playing back.

Edit: With no smoothing applied, if that's not how the script functions currently
Certainly. I am more interested in averages than peaks, as it offers me a more general outlook as to a given track's makeup.

1699655464702.png


index.php


Same scale. Average included for comparison. Getting rid of the smoothing would require more substantial modifications.
 

Anton D

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You can measure a driver in a box, but once you account for a crossover and the effects of the room the situation changes.
Like any speaker in a box.

(Disclaimer: Yeah, yeah, full range doesn't count, etc.)
 

Chrispy

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About slow bass, as a long time user of panels, and only rarely with great effort getting subs to integrate well with them, some speakers/subs do have what I'd subjectively call slow bass. Big panels usually have fast bass (but also sometimes not much bass). Lots of panels have a slightly elevated upper bass and slightly depressed lower midrange. Does this with a slow roll out to diminished bass give it the impression of more bass than it has and yet it is very fast? Does the fact it may be sort of resonant with room modes to have decent upper bass with good positioning combine with its dipole nature which doesn't excite all the room modes also let it sound faster?

Slow and fast bass is not physically descriptive, but it is perceptually correctly described.
Perceptually to you perhaps.
 

olieb

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Handy! Any chance it could be easily modified to show maximum values at each frequency? That's what speakers are actually tasked with playing back.

Edit: With no smoothing applied, if that's not how the script functions currently
You can do that in REW by using the RTA tool and import a WAV file.
 

Blumlein 88

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Perceptually to you perhaps.
Not perhaps. To me for certain.

When I've gotten the best integration with panels it has been using multiple subs set so that subs at the far end of the listening area cancel out part of the output from the subs near the speakers. I've have had some success with only a sub or subs near the speakers, but that seems to work in some rooms and in others it might be an improvement overall to get the low end power, but not quite a seamless integration. I don't think there is any voodoo involved merely that it is a complex issue. With panels and one sub it works out best to have the sub right dead in between the panels. I think that is because it partly cancels the backwave and partly reinforces the front wave of the panels at low frequencies. Never gotten panels to measure right with the sub off to the side or in a corner. You can manage that with box speakers.
 

Blumlein 88

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Not all, tho. You may perceptualize it that way, I don't.
Maybe you don't, but are you talking with panel speakers and subs. Panels interact with the room differently in the low end. A dipole and an omni don't mix like an omni and an omni.
 
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