High end DAC current state of the art

[PGAMiami]

A couple years ago US and EU DACs like the Benchmark DAC3 and the RME ADI-2 FS seemed to be close enough to the best measuring, perhaps less reliable Topping, Gustard, Eversolo … offerings that it made most sense to me to purchase the RME. However today the performance gap seems much wider, and maybe the manufacturing/reliability gap has also narrowed in favor of the non US and EU products. In this context, has the time arrived when I should replace my RME and with what? There are many new products with oven controlled clocks, R2R DACs, single bit DACs, multiple newer generation chips, R2R volume control that look extremely tempting.

 

[dshreter]

You should replace your DAC if you prefer the features available on a different one. For example DSP feature set. There is no reason to replace an RME based upon the performance of the DAC itself.

 

[JeremyFife]

^^Agree.
You might find a better measuring DAC (not by much) but the difference won't be audible.
Change if you need a new feature, or if you want a new toy.

 

[johny_2000]

RME's DSP functions are among the best. I don't see any reason to replace it with something better at the moment.

 

[fredoamigo]

What would be the point of a "you there" with a "maybe"? Besides, the safeguarding of our jobs and the power to say no and the freedom of choice.

 

[unpluggged]

However today the performance gap seems much wider

It's the other way around. Look at the price of, say, Topping DX9, read some reports here about flawed optical inputs, non-existent aftersales support, and you'll see that RME products offer even better value today. These products from Shenzhen and Guangdong factories are not competitive at these price levels.

There are many new products with oven controlled clocks, R2R DACs, single bit DACs, multiple newer generation chips, R2R volume control

There is a proverb about a cat that is bored.

that look extremely tempting.

Until you realize that the sole purpose of these esoteric measures is to make an excuse to raise prices, with no benefit to performance.

has the time arrived when I should replace my RME and with what?

Which RME specifically do you have?

 

[MaxwellsEq]

A couple years ago US and EU DACs like the Benchmark DAC3 and the RME ADI-2 FS seemed to be close enough to the best measuring, perhaps less reliable Topping, Gustard, Eversolo … offerings that it made most sense to me to purchase the RME. However today the performance gap seems much wider, and maybe the manufacturing/reliability gap has also narrowed in favor of the non US and EU products. In this context, has the time arrived when I should replace my RME and with what? There are many new products with oven controlled clocks, R2R DACs, single bit DACs, multiple newer generation chips, R2R volume control that look extremely tempting.

The RME ADI 2 FS series perform considerably better than your hearing. There is no audible benefit to be had by changing them.

RME's professional audio approach means that you will probably still get support after a decade!

 

[PGAMiami]

Sure, but part of the fun of this hobby is exploring new products. The Chinese products sure seem to be catching up to US and EU products in many ways.

 

[dshreter]

Sure, but part of the fun of this hobby is exploring new products. The Chinese products sure seem to be catching up to US and EU products in many ways.

From that perspective, sure, buy one. I’ll take the RME off your hands

 

[kemmler3D]

Sure, but part of the fun of this hobby is exploring new products. The Chinese products sure seem to be catching up to US and EU products in many ways.

I'll trade you a DX5 lite for your RME so you can check it out, no foolin'.

I think there has been some innovation and improvement in engineering such that we can easily get 100dB+ SINAD.

The problem is that you can't really hear a difference after 80 or so.

Just like more megapixels (after a certain point) doesn't make a better camera, better specs don't make a better DAC. Decent DACs have been fit for purpose for decades now. If you hear something wrong with your RME by all means replace it...

I'll just repeat the same mantra that always comes up in these threads, which is you are much better off experimenting with / spending on speakers or headphones than electronics.

 

[PGAMiami]

Fully agree, speakers and headphones make a much bigger difference. I’ve been a fan of my TAD R1 and their predecessor M1 for 20 years now, having owned Wilsons, Magico, Cello, Quad, Rogers…. I find that the R1s with some proper DSP are the best of the bunch. They are expensive but I haven’t found anything that sounds better. Amplifiers are less important. That said, I really enjoy the Benchmark AHB2, and they sound cleaner and equally powerful vs amplifiers 10x the price.

The RME DACs sound great. But I’m not a fan aesthetically of the little power supply. And the RME almost has too many features. Every now and then I do a factory reset just to make sure I haven’t messed something up. But I’m a big fan of the high output voltage and hybrid volume control. Truly brilliant solution that works extremely well with AHB2s at the lowest gain setting. Now with the RooExtend and RooADI allowing my iPad Roon app full control of volume on the RME, the convenience is hard to beat.

I may upgrade the power supply, understanding this change is more aesthetic than functional. The new RME power supply makes no sense to me. It’s 2-3x more expensive than it should be and is totally inconsistent with what they said for years. A nice little box with a ground lift switch seems to me all that was needed.

 

[GXAlan]

Sure, but part of the fun of this hobby is exploring new products.

Fully agree, speakers and headphones make a much bigger difference. I’ve been a fan of my TAD R1 and their predecessor M1 for 20 years now, having owned Wilsons, Magico, Cello, Quad, Rogers…. I find that the R1s with some proper DSP are the best of the bunch. They are expensive but I haven’t found anything that sounds better.

The most fun is taking the opportunity to explore different speakers. When was the last time you tried a flagship Magnepan in your room?

Have you tried Meyer Sound? The TAD R1TX puts you in the class of Meyer Sound Bluehorn.

Home

Best known for big PA systems and pro studio set-ups, Meyer Sound's new Bluehorn speaker system aims to deliver the ultimate in clarity and transparency. So we went for a listen.

www.whathifi.com

And you can certainly get a sampling of it with the Ultra X20.

Think about how popular custom studio monitors using TAD drivers were in the past? Today, the highest end of the high end studios are using Meyer Sound:

https://meyersound.com/public/pdf/mix_fox_scoring.pdf

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/meyer-bluehorn-speakers-the-finest-speaker-i-have-ever-heard.2920040/

Bluehorn System at Larrabee Studios

Honest Sound

meyersound.com

John Powell

Honest Sound

meyersound.com

The Bluehorn, Ultra X20, etc. are one generation newer than the Meyer Sound Amie.

 

[PGAMiami]

My room is on the small side for big speakers, 12x18x8.5. The R1s are already a bit too big. I use the room also for HT, and I found the KEF Reference center and R3 Meta work extremely well with the TADs. All use metal coax drivers. Similar dispersion pattern. A Bobwire XLR1 AB switch selects between the RME for music and a Denon 4800h for tv. The RME is fed from Roon with an Audiolense convolution filter. The Denon uses Dirac. No subs. The TADs are flat to about 17hz in room. They are tucked into the corners so DSP eq is attenuating the bass quite a lot, which allows for extra headroom in the deep bass. I had Magnepan speakers way back, but they were a cheaper model.

 

[John_Siau]

A couple years ago US and EU DACs like the Benchmark DAC3 and the RME ADI-2 FS seemed to be close enough to the best measuring, perhaps less reliable Topping, Gustard, Eversolo … offerings that it made most sense to me to purchase the RME. However today the performance gap seems much wider, and maybe the manufacturing/reliability gap has also narrowed in favor of the non US and EU products. In this context, has the time arrived when I should replace my RME and with what? There are many new products with oven controlled clocks, R2R DACs, single bit DACs, multiple newer generation chips, R2R volume control that look extremely tempting.

Don't evaluate DACs solely on the basis of SINAD.

DSP Headroom:

Don't underestimate the importance of DSP headroom. This is not shown in any of Amir's tests, because he is not currently testing for DSP clipping caused by intersample peaks exceeding 0 dBFS. DACs should be tested with a +3.01 dBFS test tone to verify that there is sufficient headroom. Beware, most DACs will fail this test!

DSP clipping can produce distortion that is only 40 or 50 dB below full output. This problem cannot be ignored. In contrast, a few dB difference in SINAD is irrelevant because the noise and distortion produced by the top-tier DACs is well below the threshold of hearing. But there is a big difference in what these DACs will do when they encounter a +3.0 dBFS test tone.

Benchmark DACs have an extra 3.5 dB headroom built into the DSP and this degrades the SINAD numbers by 3.5 dB.

Filter Response:

If the filter in the DAC does not have a linear phase response, it will change the shape of the recorded waveforms. Every pass through a non-linear filter in an A/D or D/A will increase the timing errors between different frequencies within the music. In contrast, you can cascade many A/D and D/A converters in series without changing the waveforms if the filters have a linear phase response. Avoid DACs that don't use linear phase filters. Again, this difference won't show up in a SINAD test, because the SINAD test does not measure phase errors.

Linearity:

R2R (ladder DACs) suffer from linearity problems. This problem is partially hidden by using a DC offset. It can be exposed when running an IMD test. It can also be exposed by a linearity test. It may not show up in SINAD tests. R2R linearity problems can cause significant distortion in low-level signals.

 

[VintageFlanker]

However today the performance gap seems much wider,

What "performance gap" are you talking about?

 

[DSJR]

The RME DACs sound great. But I’m not a fan aesthetically of the little power supply. And the RME almost has too many features. Every now and then I do a factory reset just to make sure I haven’t messed something up. But I’m a big fan of the high output voltage and hybrid volume control. Truly brilliant solution that works extremely well with AHB2s at the lowest gain setting. Now with the RooExtend and RooADI allowing my iPad Roon app full control of volume on the RME, the convenience is hard to beat.

I may upgrade the power supply, understanding this change is more aesthetic than functional. The new RME power supply makes no sense to me. It’s 2-3x more expensive than it should be and is totally inconsistent with what they said for years. A nice little box with a ground lift switch seems to me all that was needed.

Late reply here, but the RME should basically give you what the mastering engineer intended, no more, no less, so no 'sound at all' of its own. I'd look deeper into top pro models as 'alternatives' which may offer nothing at all other than appearance (Prism and so on? - edit, see Benchmark comments above and why the sinad of the Benchmark dac is where it is).

The RME power supply 'upgrade' may offer nothing sonically, but it does 'measure' better, even of the dac itself doesn't mind. It'd be something to spend your dosh on though and it most definitely won't make things worse...

I have itchy feet with gear though too. In my case, having other things to spend what little disposable income we have on, has shut that particular door. Why not try to take in some live concerts of all genres, the experiences of which far better than a crummy stereo (crummy at any price regardless) playing recordings which usually get 'mastered' to within an inch of their lives I don't mean to be rude and mean no offence here, but it helped put reproduced sound into better focus for me.

 

[Purité Audio]

Don’t buy it and save £1k .
Just a fop to the audiophile crowd imho and again imho ever so slightly diminished my opinion of RME .
Keith

 

[PGAMiami]

Don't evaluate DACs solely on the basis of SINAD.

DSP Headroom:

Don't underestimate the importance of DSP headroom. This is not shown in any of Amir's tests, because he is not currently testing for DSP clipping caused by intersample peaks exceeding 0 dBFS. DACs should be tested with a +3.01 dBFS test tone to verify that there is sufficient headroom. Beware, most DACs will fail this test!

DSP clipping can produce distortion that is only 40 or 50 dB below full output. This problem cannot be ignored. In contrast, a few dB difference in SINAD is irrelevant because the noise and distortion produced by the top-tier DACs is well below the threshold of hearing. But there is a big difference in what these DACs will do when they encounter a +3.0 dBFS test tone.

Benchmark DACs have an extra 3.5 dB headroom built into the DSP and this degrades the SINAD numbers by 3.5 dB.

Filter Response:

If the filter in the DAC does not have a linear phase response, it will change the shape of the recorded waveforms. Every pass through a non-linear filter in an A/D or D/A will increase the timing errors between different frequencies within the music. In contrast, you can cascade many A/D and D/A converters in series without changing the waveforms if the filters have a linear phase response. Avoid DACs that don't use linear phase filters. Again, this difference won't show up in a SINAD test, because the SINAD test does not measure phase errors.

Linearity:

R2R (ladder DACs) suffer from linearity problems. This problem is partially hidden by using a DC offset. It can be exposed when running an IMD test. It can also be exposed by a linearity test. It may not show up in SINAD tests. R2R linearity problems can cause significant distortion in low-level signals.

John, I’m honored to have you read and reply to my posts. I’m a huge fan of your AHB2s and currently have 4. It’s the best amplifier I’ve owned and it cost 15x less than the Constellation Monos it replaced. It would be great if you offered a multichannel DAC. Multichannel seems to me the future, especially with products like the new Nuprime H16-A coming to market.

 

[Scytales]

John, I’m honored to have you read and reply to my posts. I’m a huge fan of your AHB2s and currently have 4. It’s the best amplifier I’ve owned and it cost 15x less than the Constellation Monos it replaced. It would be great if you offered a multichannel DAC. Multichannel seems to me the future, especially with products like the new Nuprime H16-A coming to market.

I concur about a multichannel DAC ! This kind of device does not exists in sufficient numbers in the home audio market and those that exist doesn't have all the conveniences needed nowadays, especially all the available digital interfaces that are in use (HDMI, USBs), except some very cheap Chinese audio HDMI extractors of which we know almost nothing about their performances and the very costly Exasound e88. There is not enough competition in this market yet.

 

[Roland68]

I concur about a multichannel DAC ! This kind of device does not exists in sufficient numbers in the home audio market and those that exist doesn't have all the conveniences needed nowadays, especially all the available digital interfaces that are in use (HDMI, USBs), except some very cheap Chinese audio HDMI extractors of which we know almost nothing about their performances and the very costly Exasound e88. There is not enough competition in this market yet.

One problem with multi-channel DACs is that it's a niche market with too few customers.
Even Topping has discontinued the affordable and very well-measured 8-channel DM7 due to lack of sales.