HBK Headphone Measurement Talks from Head-Fi and Sean Olive

[stevenswall]

It is hard. One was a wireless and the other wired.

I think he was asked a similar question in a Youtube video recently.

The wireless one was a JBL TWS Pro + or similar, and the wired one I think he wears in some video meetings and is an AKG K371.

I'd download this video before Saemsueng removes it because it shows deviation and scoring for various headphones based on the Harman curve.

My mistake, this is the correct video, now timestamped to the part he references his favorite when he goes running or walking:

 

[Jim777]

I hope Samsung management/Legal understand that by sharing their research, their work has become a review criteria which can be very beneficial to them.

Being partial to having good objective data/methods in this world, I really like this argument.

 

[Sean Olive]

I think he was asked a similar question in a Youtube video recently.

The wireless one was a JBL TWS Pro + or similar, and the wired one I think he wears in some video meetings and is an AKG K371.

I'd download this video before Saemsueng removes it because it shows deviation and scoring for various headphones based on the Harman curve.

My mistake, this is the correct video, now timestamped to the part he references his favorite when he goes running or walking:

This is the one I currently use . Got a pretty good review from Rtings as well: https://www.rtings.com/headphones/reviews/jbl/club-pro-plus-tws-true-wireless.

The Samsung Buds are also good but as an employee I don't get much of a discount on Samsung products (including AKG consumer headphones) and can often pay less on Amazon.com. Therefore, I prefer JBL for a fraction of the cost assuming the performance is much the same.

 

[stevenswall]

The Samsung Buds are also good but as an employee I don't get much of a discount on Samsung products (including AKG consumer headphones) and can often pay less on Amazon.com. Therefore, I prefer JBL for a fraction of the cost assuming the performance is much the same.

I listened to a roommate's Galaxy Buds based on the high score they received, and there were a lot of things to like about them.

In that video you mention some stuff coming down the line from Harman or JBL... I'm sure you can't talk directly about them, but where does Harman/JBL list their new products? Something to look for this year perhaps or are these distant?

I'd pay quite a bit for something more ergonomic than the JBL Club TWS and Samsung Galaxy Buds... maybe with a collection of balanced armature drivers to decrease the size, with excellent noise isolation and cancellation, and no ear pressure (most "pro level" multi driver IEMs and Etymotic earphones have this issue for me.)

 

[max233]

Sean, were your notable/favorite headphones referenced in the talk (and Amirm's summary) the K371 and JBL Tune 710, or were there others?

Also, do the Tune 710's still have the same profile when using the 3.5mm jack, or is that a DSP'd profile only available in the active BT mode?

If you're going to buy them make sure you get two so you have one to listen to while the other is RMA. Their customer service, which is very good btw, know me by my first name. I went through five or six before I finally gave up and sold the last unopened one on eBay.

 

[Sean Olive]

I listened to a roommate's Galaxy Buds based on the high score they received, and there were a lot of things to like about them.

In that video you mention some stuff coming down the line from Harman or JBL... I'm sure you can't talk directly about them, but where does Harman/JBL list their new products? Something to look for this year perhaps or are these distant?

I'd pay quite a bit for something more ergonomic than the JBL Club TWS and Samsung Galaxy Buds... maybe with a collection of balanced armature drivers to decrease the size, with excellent noise isolation and cancellation, and no ear pressure (most "pro level" multi driver IEMs and Etymotic earphones have this issue for me.)

Current products are listed on www.jbl.com and www.akg.com. The new headphone product I referred to should be announced in the next couple of weeks. Sometimes a 3rd party foam tip like the Comply Foam tips solve fit problems, like I had with the AKG N5005 where none of the tips would provide a good seal or fit.

 

[quantum_wave]

The decision to no longer publish research considered useful to the industry is coming from HARMAN management - not Samsung.I've had a lot of scientific/academic freedom and publishing research over my career, and it was always justified as "thought leadership". There was this perhaps naive notion that publishing scientific evidence about what makes products sound good was more effective than just having sales and marketing making unsubstantiated claims that they sound good. But the decision was made that showing scientific evidence also helps competitors follow your lead.

Jude mentioned in his talk that Harman research is the best we have at the moment because we are the only company that shares it. He inferred other companies are doing similar research but being secret about it. . So we will have to wait to see who will be the new thought leader in the industry.

For what it's worth, this marketing through publishing the science has worked for at least some of us, the public - especially since the rise of ASR and better understanding of the science by the public. Personally, when I'm looking at audio products of different companies, I automatically give more credibility to JBL and Harmon brands since I know the company's product development is rooted in science.

 

[Blumlein 88]

For what it's worth, this marketing through publishing the science has worked for at least some of us, the public - especially since the rise of ASR and better understanding of the science by the public. Personally, when I'm looking at audio products of different companies, I automatically give more credibility to JBL and Harmon brands since I know the company's product development is rooted in science.

I agree yet for most of their marketing it's never mentioned in any way. For speakers I'd like the spins always part of the ad or at least available for download somewhere. Ditto for results on headphone test curves. Even the public baffled by it might be impressed while others will look into it enough to understand it. Yet they don't do that.

 

[thewas]

How difficult would it be to develop test procedures and fixtures intended at calibrating an empirical (mathematical) model of the headphone instead of characterizing its response on a particular test fixture? The model could be used to correlate and predict responses on GRAS, BK, or even an individual HRTF. The ‘targets FR’ would become ‘target models’ correlated to represent specific populations groups.
Too complex? Dream only?

Good idea, I could image something like the Klippel NFS for headphones, capturing the radiated 3D soundfield of the headphone and based on those measurements be able to simulate the responses on any head/ear geometry.

 

[KiyPhi]

Good idea, I could image something like the Klippel NFS for headphones, capturing the radiated 3D soundfield of the headphone and based on those measurements be able to simulate the responses on any head/ear geometry.

It would have to test how the headphone reacts to different seals automatically and with how much headphones vary in shape, I figure that would be pretty hard, especially seeing as how wide the acoustic impedances change on a per headphone basis. This interaction is part of why it isn't easy to just make a compensation curve from one headphone rig to another.

 

[PeteL]

I feel that naming a $45,000 headphone was a total copout that he is wagering he will not be questioned on simply because no one can afford to measure it or even use their ears to evaluate his completely subjective opinion.

You can hear it in pretty much any headphone trade shows. They are also the best headphone to my ears that I’ve tried, I don’t see anything wrong with stating that.

 

[bigjacko]

I have a question regarding the target curve. Seems like many companies are researching about the best target curve for headphone. Is Harman curve regarded as best target curve? Is there any reason why Harman is the best target curve? I don't know if other companies show their target or research behind it, so maybe the reason Harman's curve is the best is the absence of competitors. If other companies show their target curve to compete, Harman must be pretty good at it so most people regard it as best curve.

Now the problem is, if the reason Harman's curve is best is because lack of competition, what will happen if Harman stop showing the curve or research behind it? Will people still think it is the best or think it is not superior to other curve?

 

[MayaTlab]

Is there any reason why Harman is the best target curve?

Explanation of the research in the video right above (post #81) .

 

[Fafnar]

One of the interesting things from Jude's talk Q&A that captured my attention was his comment that Head Acoustics had a test fixture that includes software called MDAQ that calculates a perceptual Mean Opinion Score (MOS) based on measurements. It calculates sound quality based on timbre, distortion, ANC performance and immersion. The highest scoring headphone was Apple Airpod Max with ANC turned off

I found out today that one of the guys working at Apple on Headphones used to work at Head Acoustics on this software. So it's not a surprise he tuned the headphone to get the highest score. The question is: "How Accurate is this prediction??"


https://cdn.head-acoustics.com/file...HN3LnCn5g1XKoIpfCpHXZuUFsYRDvJqaMVS4I7Su7Ptdg

MDAQ & its MOS estimation were useful some 15-20 years ago when working with different VoIP implementations. It correctly identified that G.729 was almost as good as G.711, for example. One could run lossy or jittery connections and get a good estimate of MOS through MDAQ (or PSQM or PAMS or w/e your algorithm of choice).

Given the frequency range and relative granularity of telephony, I hadn't thought anybody would use MOS or MDAQ for things like headphones. Harman target seems to be better in that respect.

 

[GXAlan]

Now the problem is, if the reason Harman's curve is best is because lack of competition, what will happen if Harman stop showing the curve or research behind it? Will people still think it is the best or think it is not superior to other curve?

Biased opinion since I really like Harman’s stuff from vintage JBL SA600 to Greg Timbers era L112, Mini Everest S2600, XPL90 to Allan Devantier’s Music 2 and HLS-610. I have had a Revel B15a for 15+ years. Harman has always had a strong science background even though they lost the ability to have engineering and manufacturing under the same roof.

The Harman science is to find the best overall sound for the population. We see that in speakers, when speakers were cool, and now in headphones now that it’s a bigger market.

But in the speaker blind test done here at ASR, 80% loved the Revel speaker but there were 20% who liked something else. And it is perfectly OK to target that audience the same way you can go into a supermarket and get regular ice cream, frozen yogurt, or all sorts of dairy substitute frozen desserts. You may not like kale based desserts but there are people who like that and a company can profit selling to that niche.

Harman already knows that you need to have a JBL curve and a AKG curve when it comes to headphones, which reflects differences in bass performance.

The biggest difference is in automotive audio. Harman does the audio for Lexus (Mark Levinson), Toyota (JBL Synthesis), Lincoln (Revel), Genesis (Lexicon), Cadillac (AKG), Volvo (Bowers and Wilkins*), BMW (Harman Kardon, Bowers and Wilkins*), and Audi (Bang and Olfusen*). I could keep going.

Bowers and Wilkins *car audio* is run by Harman and Bang and Olufsen *car audio* is run by Harman too.

None of those cars have the same target curve. Volvo gets Dirac while the others don’t.

Harman themselves acknowledged the benefits of visuals. One of their press releases includes the statement:
“Our Bowers & Wilkins system features a tweeter on the dashboard which is sure to grab any driver or passenger’s attention. Does that tweeter improve the audio performance? Yes, but the bigger impact is the visual moment that is shared between the car, the driver, and passengers.”

Similar to headphones, different cars are tuned a little differently.

 

[amirm]

You can hear it in pretty much any headphone trade shows. They are also the best headphone to my ears that I’ve tried, I don’t see anything wrong with stating that.

You can say that. But if you are presenting at a test and measurement conference as Jude was, right after praising the host company's measurement system, it looks pretty bad to say you have not measured your favorite headphone.

 

[Koeitje]

But in the speaker blind test done here at ASR, 80% loved the Revel speaker but there were 20% who liked something else. And it is perfectly OK to target that audience the same way you can go into a supermarket and get regular ice cream, frozen yogurt, or all sorts of dairy substitute frozen desserts. You may not like kale based desserts but there are people who like that and a company can profit selling to that niche.

This big gain is that you can easily separate the wheat from the chaff. That Revel speaker is not going to sound bad to 99,9% of the population, they are at the very least going to sound ok and most likely good, so its worth listening to when looking for new loudspeakers. The loudspeaker with a terrible spin? Just ignore that in your search and don't waste your time listening to it. So these speaker tests give you a subset of loudspeakers worth checking out.

 

[PeteL]

You can say that. But if you are presenting at a test and measurement conference as Jude was, right after praising the host company's measurement system, it looks pretty bad to say you have not measured your favorite headphone

I see no conflict, I haven' watch the conference but distinction between headphones are quite easily audible, you can both as a same time recognize the importance of measurments, and be able to recognize a great headphone when you hear it. He would probably measure it if he was loaned one, as you would no?

 

[amirm]

I see no conflict, I haven' watch the conference but distinction between headphones are quite easily audible, you can both as a same time recognize the importance of measurments, and be able to recognize a great headphone when you hear it. He would probably measure it if he was loaned one, as you would no?

Huh? If it were so easy, why would anyone do any research then?

 

[PeteL]

Huh? If it were so easy, why would anyone do any research then?

Again, I believe it is possible to at the same time believe in research, and have preferences, and listen, I don't think they are mutually exclusive positions, I don't know what more to answer to your question, OK if you think there can't be both, it's your opinion.