Harbeth speakers

[DWI]

The interesting thing about HUG is that Shaw enforces objectivism..up to the point of discussing his speaker’s measurements or disagreeing with his points about, say, Klippel/NFS measurement.

I wish he would engage and discuss the Harman curve, etc. Unfortunately, I have to assume the reason he doesn’t is because his favored design doesn’t (and probably can’t) conform. But I don’t think his audience would care, so I don’t get why he doesn’t just embrace and discuss the way his speakers measure.

I was a Harbeth owner and read HUG. Never heard of the Harman curve, looked it up and it is to do with headphones. As Harbeth don't make headphones, why would they possibly want to discuss it?

 

[DWI]

Yes, this is true at audio and what you have e.g. in the „Harbeth sphere HUG“.
Follow them or you’ll be blocked, moderated,
There will always be 2 camps, the objectivist and subjectivists.
I personally do not say that measurements are useless. They show us tendencies, yes.
I think Harbeth are nice speakers but they also have their flaws.
To not see the other side any more, and following pied pipers blind, is arrogant and socially dangerous.
Nowadays, because of the internet, its a social desater that everyone thinks that he knows everything.
e.g. the COVID subject. It looks like we have countless virologists…

HUG is a user group for Harbeth owners or potential owners, who want to know a bit more about their speakers and how to get the most out of them through shared experiences of other users. It is not a forum for general discussion of audio and other brands. It's basically operated for the benefit of Harbeth customers. There are plenty of other places online where you can argue about audio.

I read and contributed to HUG from time to time whilst I was a Harbeth owner and now that I do not own their speakers I've not read it.

I always enjoyed listening through Harbeth and was never inclined to change them, even though I went to many speaker demonstrations. I was forced to change them as our house has been completely redesigned and aesthetically they would not fit in.

 

[ahofer]

I was a Harbeth owner and read HUG. Never heard of the Harman curve, looked it up and it is to do with headphones. As Harbeth don't make headphones, why would they possibly want to discuss it?

Not just headphones. There are target response measurements for loudspeakers as well. Search it in this forum.

The Harman In-Room Target Curve - why is it represented as a thin line?

I typically see the Harman target curve represented as a thin line on an amplitude vs. freq chart, as if the goal were to achieve that target precisely. But looking at a review article written by Toole entitled "The Measurement and Calibration of Sound Reproducing Systems" (JAES...

audiosciencereview.com

 

[posvibes]

I think I remember reading Alan Shaw saying something like " read the book by Toole and there's not much else to know" or sentiments to that effect.

 

[ahofer]

I think I remember reading Alan Shaw saying something like " read the book by Toole and there's not much else to know" or sentiments to that effect.

I think I saw that-but wouldn’t it be followed by discussing a spinorama of one of his speakers?

 

[posvibes]

I think I saw that-but wouldn’t it be followed by discussing a spinorama of one of his speakers?

It was a while ago since I read that at HUG, but I think it was a general response, that what is known about transducer engineering is pretty much known and along with a couple of books about the science of human hearing and Toole's book there is not much more than can be added. I probably stopped contributing to HUG when Spinorama's became a thing. I don't know if AS is a fan or a user or Spinorama, objectivist driven as I came to the conclusion Shaw is, vehemently so, I'd be surprised if he is not a spinorama user.

That said I believe Harbeth is not a market chaser of making new offerings in all price categories, shapes, sizes and colours and various qualities. Shaw seemed an astute businessman and had a sense of his ambitions vs limitations in maintaining a viable business and employing local people while manufacturing in his homeland. Not only tha,t but considering the ruptures of Brexit and Covid on top and the new market demands and logistics as well as added costs that all would entail to maintain such a business is pretty damn good.

 

[DWI]

Not just headphones. There are target response measurements for loudspeakers as well. Search it in this forum.

The Harman In-Room Target Curve - why is it represented as a thin line?

I typically see the Harman target curve represented as a thin line on an amplitude vs. freq chart, as if the goal were to achieve that target precisely. But looking at a review article written by Toole entitled "The Measurement and Calibration of Sound Reproducing Systems" (JAES...

audiosciencereview.com

Looks like someone called Harman sticking his name on something that speaker designers like Alan Shaw have appreciated for decades.

Alan Shaw and others I've read about or spoken to design speakers for the consumer market that suit "typical" domestic rooms, which does not amount to an end-to-end flat response. That may be why I found them easy to position, worked well with many types of music and never fatigued over quite a number of years. There is quite a lot of judgement in designing a speaker like that. I suspect it is very different with studio monitors, which I have never owned, as I do not live in a recording studio.

 

[ahofer]

Looks like someone called Harman sticking his name on something that speaker designers like Alan Shaw have appreciated for decades.

Or rather, something that Olive and Toole substantiated with proper, controlled, published research while working at Harman Research Labs.

 

[DWI]

Or rather, something that Olive and Toole substantiated with proper, controlled, published research while working at Harman Research Labs.

The BBC Research Department spent vast amounts of money over some 40 years developing speakers that they licensed to Harbeth, Spendor etc. starting in the 1970s. You can read all the research online if you want, from the 1940s to now.

Search - BBC R&D

Search

www.bbc.co.uk

These companies did not start with a blank sheet, they started with brilliant designs. Harbeth was created by the former head of BBC Research. They have since been improved upon, most importantly in cone materials.

Most of the other speakers I've used over 35 years were made by companies founded by former BBC engineers. The BBC also bought in technology from the likes of Tannoy, Wharfdale, Quad, KEF and others. It is no surprise that these companies have prospered for many years, some up to 90 years. I'ver also used Dynaudio for over 10 years, another company with an excellent R&D history and success.

So just because Harman and Kippel come along, doesn't mean that almost a century of accumulated research and empirical evidence goes out the window.

 

[ahofer]

So just because Harman and Kippel come along, doesn't mean that almost a century of accumulated research and empirical evidence goes out the window.

Nobody suggested that. Olive and Toole built substantially on the BBC knowledge base, particularly with respect to directivity, the exact area where Harbeths do not conform, and to which much of the criticism above is aimed.

 

[DWI]

Nobody suggested that. Olive and Toole built expanded substantially on the BBC knowledge base, particularly with respect to directivity, the exact area where Harbeths do not conform, and to which much of the criticism above is aimed.

Directivity is mentioned about 3 times in almost 200 posts in this thread. I googled and this review seems to have been done to death elsewhere, see: https://pinkfishmedia.net/forum/threads/harbeth-monitor-30-speaker-measured-by-amir-of-asr.236557/

I can't say directivity ever bothered me, I sat in the same place listening to my Harbeth. I suspect that's what most people do.

 

[ahofer]

I can't say directivity ever bothered me, I sat in the same place listening to my Harbeth. I suspect that's what most people do.

That's a very revealing comment.

 

[helom]

Considerably overpriced (especially at current prices) compared with contemporaries of similar design philosophy. The least impressive of their ilk which is unfortunate considering how many buy them without auditioning any of their competitors.

 

[richard12511]

I can't say directivity ever bothered me, I sat in the same place listening to my Harbeth. I suspect that's what most people do.

Directivity matters whether or not you listen on or off axis, as we still hear reflections. This has been proven with double blind listening tests. Great on axis and great directivity will always beet great on axis on its own. This is where the BBC research falls short; Harbeth speakers are great on axis, but they're not as good as the state of the art designs from Revel, KEF, Genelec, Neumann that are great on and off axis.

Like it or not, Harman research expanded greatly on the BBC research, and the state of the art designs following said research(Genelec, Revel, KEF) sound better to the average listener than Harbeth speakers.

Not saying Harbeths(and other BBC designs) are bad, but they're just no longer state of the art. Also, I'm speaking purely from an "average preference" perspective. Individual preference is entirely different, and I have no doubt that Harbeth meets the individual preferences of certain listeners.

 

[Pjetrof]

I love my 30.2 in the beautifully walnut veneer.
Before buying harbeth, bought the same pair 3 times, i owned lots of different speakers and listen to lots of other speakers.
all the great brands.
for my 53 old ears no speaker sound like a harbeth speaker, and maybe that is what make those speakerss so special.

 

[ahofer]

I love my 30.2 in the beautifully walnut veneer.
Before buying harbeth, bought the same pair 3 times, i owned lots of different speakers and listen to lots of other speakers.
all the great brands.
for my 53 old ears no speaker sound like a harbeth speaker, and maybe that is what make those speakerss so special.

Despite my acknowledgement of the good directivity research discussed above, and some of the weird design choices in my speakers (super tweeter integration), I am very fond of my Harbeth SHL5+(AE) myself. It might be in my head, but if so, it’s been a reliably consistent illusion.

 

[ahofer]

Directivity matters whether or not you listen on or off axis, as we still hear reflections.

Unless your listening room is anechoic

 

[DSJR]

AS has stated many times that time moves on, that the current designs cannot be taken much further if at all 'as they are!' He's become excited by new amp developments and hints he's looking towards Purifi and Hypex... What that means for the future is anybody's guess, but he claims to have taken on more engineering staff and progress is continuing (and rapid?). No idea otherwise, but it'll be interesting to see what the future brings, especially as the current models find good and usually lasting homes (you didn't usually see eBay and the like full of Harbeths for sale unless someone had passed away or to replace older models with an updated version).

I'd like to see Amir have a go at something like the Yamaha NS1000, an international well known classic that 'seems' to age well. these things were around for decades and were a huge step forward for the size in 1975 when I first heard them (not even sure we had suitable speaker stands when they were first unboxed in the dem room, so were plonked on the floor (EEK!).

 

[helom]

Based entirely on my subjective listening experience, three Harbeth models (C7, M30, and P3) are competitive within the $1500 - $3K price range, the P3s being competitive with the KEF LS50 ($1500) and M30s barely competitive with Stirling Broadcast SB-88 ($3200 street price).

In my systems and to my ears, the Vandersteen 1Cis ($1600) and Magnepan .7s ($1450), on balance, are equally enjoyable to these Harbeth models, which is why I’ve come to consider the latter overpriced.

The two outliers are the Hl5 Plus and M40s, which compete within a higher tier (again, totally subjective) though their prices have also been inflated to an extent that they no longer offer good value IMHO. Though in fairness, that’s the case for all these BBC-derived brands. That is of course, unless their particular traits meet one’s unique preferences better than anything else they’ve tried. Point being, it’s my opinion that you really have to put in the leg work in auditioning (and better yet, owning) a wide variety of speakers to determine whether Harbeth or similar brands offer good value. So many out there are buying them solely for their reputation, which I feel is a big mistake, because I would wager that for a majority of listeners, they wouldn’t be the top choice among 20 brands within thier price range.

 

[Willem]

Mind you, Harbeth (and other) prices vary enormously between continents. Harbeth's US prices are significantly higher than in the EU or UK. The US importer seems quite greedy.