End Game Speakers - The Quest Continues

[Pearljam5000]

Again, Genelec is not end game for me. But of course I am very happy that it is for others

What didn't you like about their sound?

 

[srrxr71]

The other thing I would consider if I needed the SPL are Danley line arrays.

 

[MKR]

I am not. As has been said on these forums before Genelec recommends complementary mode for most people.

That front 14” mid woofer just by its dimensions will have controlled dispersion.

I have tried it before and didn’t notice much difference but maybe I can try it again. In my case I wonder how much difference it would make as they are on the 35’ wall far from any side walls and also the room is well treated.

Any issues I have are found below 60Hz anyway and no system that I know of is cardioid below 60Hz.

The D&D 8c is cardioid down to 100Hz. The w371 is down to 60Hz afaik.

I don’t really know how to do the math to figure out how directional a 14” driver is and at what point it goes omnidirectional.

I could try to calibrate in cardiod mode tonight and see if it makes any difference. I think also I’ll bring them in a little closer.

The issue is output will go down in cardioid mode as the 2 drivers will be fighting each other in a sense. Right now they are covering for each other’s deficiencies due to their physical location.

Get that cardioid up and running and you may not need all that room treatment. And I do not believe the 371 is capable of cardioid down to 60Hz, not flat or -3dB anyway.

 

[srrxr71]

Get that cardioid up and running and you may not need all that room treatment. And I do not believe the 371 is capable of cardioid down to 60Hz, not flat or -3dB anyway.

I mean I don’t know. I’m past the tech at this point. I just like how this sound makes me feel. And again many paths to here. I hope you find yours.

 

[MKR]

What didn't you like about their sound?

That’s easy … Not full range cardioid (roughly flat to 40Hz), near to mid field listening distance, no variable directivity.

 

[srrxr71]

That’s easy … Not full range cardioid (roughly flat to 40Hz), near to mid field listening distance, no variable directivity.

I mean the treatment ensures less than 200ms decay time. It sounds more impressive than it is to say actually. Just imho

 

[MKR]

I mean I don’t know. I’m past the tech at this point. I just like how this sound makes me feel. And again many paths to here. I hope you find yours.

Well, maybe you can get an even higher level of nirvana with the cardioid … how do you know if you haven’t even tried?

 

[Pearljam5000]

Well, maybe you can get an even higher level of nirvana with the cardioid … how do you know if you haven’t even tried?

There are other more important things than cardioid (to me)
Like a coaxial driver, reliability etc

 

[srrxr71]

Well, maybe you can get an even higher level of nirvana with the cardioid … how do you know if you haven’t even tried?

I have once. I calibrated in cardoid once. Okay fine. You’ve twisted my arm haha. I’ll calibrate in cardioid. Let’s see.

 

[srrxr71]

Fine I did it. Haha.

 

[Pearljam5000]

Fine I did it. Haha.

Does it sound better now ?

 

[srrxr71]

Does it sound better now ?

This will take time to figure out.

Edit: btw it’s called “continuous directivity” mode.

Edit 2: it solved that dip issue. Wow. The graph is better.

 

[MKR]

There are other more important things than cardioid (to me)
Like a coaxial driver, reliability etc

Who said I won’t have coaxial and reliability? I never did. And have you ever heard 40Hz cardioid before?

 

[Mr. Widget]

Well, maybe you can get an even higher level of nirvana with the cardioid … how do you know if you haven’t even tried?

Is that like blacker than black?

 

[Pearljam5000]

Who said I won’t have coaxial and reliability? I never did. And have you ever heard 40Hz cardioid before?

Which one of your finalists have a coaxial driver ?
"And have you ever heard 40Hz cardioid before?"-No

 

[gnarly]

"End Game" gear for the audiophile is more about the individual's psychology than characteristics of the gear itself. It's less "I found a speaker that allowed me to get off the merry-go-round" and more "I finally allowed MYSELF to get off the merry-go-round."

That makes a lot of sense to me.

The 3-4 decades that I was into home audio when I would have considered myself an audiophile, do feel looking back like I was on a merry-go-round....
of gear swapping...speakers, electronics, phono cartridges, then DACs, transports, yada.
Often going as much in a circle as achieving any real gains.

I switched to prosound speakers about 20 years ago which somehow led me to DIY. With DIY, I feel like I'm now on more of a mountain climb.
DIY speakers have given me a path of slow but steady, and near certain progress.

Sometimes a DIY attempt becomes trying to climb up the wrong mountain face or canyon. But once past the false start, info has been gained, the mountain gets remapped, and the climb continues.

I kinda hope I never lose the enthusiasm to keep climbing...it's fun, and it's certainly been paying off sonically.
I'm 10 for 10 in terms of how my system wowed the last 10 guests.
I never play anything until asked, then when asked, they choose at least the genre if not a specific track.
I don't have a sweet spot, not even any listening chairs. What I do have is probably the clearest, most dynamic, big SPL and bass, they've encountered....about anywhere i would daringly reckon.

 

[flysouth]

Which one of your finalists have a coaxial driver ?
"And have you ever heard 40Hz cardioid before?"-No

aha those new dutch & dutch will have coax if that meets the must’ves.

id want to know too. never heard card until l them or kii

 

[benanders]

...
I'm 10 for 10 in terms of how my system wowed the last 10 guests.
I never play anything until asked, then when asked, they choose at least the genre if not a specific track.
I don't have a sweet spot, not even any listening chairs. What I do have is probably the clearest, most dynamic, big SPL and bass, they've encountered....about anywhere i would daringly reckon.

Same.
I am curious, @gnarly , (especially with regard to this pursuit of @MKR ): what are the boundaries made of - your 10/10 speaker room - floor/walls/ceiling?
With the same effects achieved, I’m in a room that’s 100% 6” concrete (no windows) excepting the front wall (room-wide, floor to ceiling glass shielded from high frequencies by softwood blinds = effectively invisible to low bass so no real perceptible front wall bounce of low frequencies).

If I had drywall and studs for walls and ceiling instead of solid concrete all around, I cannot imagine things would sound the same. I could surely not get away with such little low end driver SA as I’m using now.

I haven’t found much discussion about how well increased output / SPL of big speakers can make up for structural room boundaries of frequency-selective permeability. Seems like an oft-unaddressed issue simply because most of us cannot go wall/ceiling-shopping or room boundaries-re-engineering as “affordably” as can be done with speakers.

And I’m sorry if querying about house structural composition seems invasive. Just curious about this topic and not intending to pry. Seems at least slightly more relevant a topic in this thread than Genele……….

 

[onion]

This will take time to figure out.

Edit: btw it’s called “continuous directivity” mode.

Edit 2: it solved that dip issue. Wow. The graph is better.

Hold on! I thought cardioid meant narrow directivity where the sound is not dispersed evenly but focussed forwards to the listening position to reduce room interactions. I don't believe the W371a is cardioid in the same way the 8c is. This seems to be borne out by the reduced XTC performance of the W371a (in any of its modes) compared to the 8c using BACCH4Mac (around a 5-7dB difference).

The continuous directivity mode is supposed to ensure a uniform sound dispersion pattern across the frequency range. I've found that this mode tends to give the flattest frequency response too. Honestly though, I can't tell which of the 5 modes I prefer and suspect I'd fail any blind preference test.

The W371a has three reflection-reducing modes (to minimise side, back or floor reflections). I suspect these are more cardioid than the continuous directivity mode. As my room is short front-to-back (3m), I use the back wall reflection-reducing mode.

 

[gnarly]

Same.
I am curious, @gnarly , (especially with regard to this pursuit of @MKR ): what are the boundaries made of - your 10/10 speaker room - floor/walls/ceiling?
With the same effects achieved, I’m in a room that’s 100% 6” concrete (no windows) excepting the front wall (room-wide, floor to ceiling glass shielded from high frequencies by softwood blinds = effectively invisible to low bass so no real perceptible front wall bounce of low frequencies).

If I had drywall and studs for walls and ceiling instead of solid concrete all around, I cannot imagine things would sound the same. I could surely not get away with such little low end driver SA as I’m using now.

I haven’t found much discussion about how well increased output / SPL of big speakers can make up for structural room boundaries of frequency-selective permeability. Seems like an oft-unaddressed issue simply because most of us cannot go wall/ceiling-shopping or room boundaries-re-engineering as “affordably” as can be done with speakers.

And I’m sorry if querying about house structural composition seems invasive. Just curious about this topic and not intending to pry. Seems at least slightly more relevant a topic in this thread than Genele……….

Hi benanders, very interesting topic you're raising....
My room boundaries are a trussed floor (2nd floor room), a vaulted ceiling with of roof over it, and external frame walls on 3 sides all with windows and doors.
room opens into other living spaces on long wall. And it's pretty big at 34ft x 18ft x 8-16ft high.
So relatively loose construction and large....takes a ton of subwoofer capacity to drive the system into the wow zone.

I can easily see how your nearly 100% concrete construction provides real room gain that gives wow factor sub response.
When I lived in NYC, the two apartments I lived in both had 100% concrete boundaries. The smallish rooms in them were wonderful for electrostats....didn't feel the need for subs with stats that had relatively strong low end (Acoustat-X)
But moving them into a similar size room with looser construction, ....well....goodbye sufficient low-end response.

I really think the "room gain", that is so often assumed to exist when folks estimate what kind of low frequency extension they are getting....
...is much more nonexistent than real....when you factor in boundary construction.
Perhaps even worse, loose construction is a real bass absorber....so tonal balance can get brighter as SPL is turned up.
Which means even more sub power is needed if one wants more realistic SPL.

And I think uncompressed unclipped sub response is sooo damn important to good sound....it and realistic SPL that has hi-fi clarity, are what I strive for.