It's a guy that has the alias I-or on the Swedish forum called Faktiskt, a similar fact-based HiFi forum as ASR. Unfortunately, I don't know his real name or what firms in the audio industry he has worked for, it seems he likes to keep things like that out of his participation on the forum. Sorry that I can't provide you with better information than that.
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Do Audio Speakers Break-in?
- Thread starter amirm
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It's a guy that has the alias I-or on the Swedish forum called Faktiskt, a similar fact-based HiFi forum as ASR. Unfortunately, I don't know his real name or what firms in the audio industry he has worked for, it seems he likes to keep things like that out of his participation on the forum. Sorry that I can't provide you with better information than that.
I think the key is maybe to say it’s not significant or practically break in for a “well made and designed driver, fully functional without say voice coil abnormally rubs against the housing or magnets”.Who said that?
Regarding hard-to-define processes, not so, see videos below. In fact, I think most possible mechanisms (and some fantasy) have been theorized in this thread, some of those theories are reasonable, but of course the magnitude and relevance of the effects is the speculative part of these theories. Like theorizing the type of frictional and chemical degradations that occur in car tires is relevant and significant for a speaker driver (hint, it is not significant and barely relevant).
See Andrew Jones for the most cogent discussion of the physical mechanisms that actually change with break in:
For a well-designed driver:
- They don't change much
- The change occurs soon after first operation
- After change, a speaker is stable until wear-out or damage
Of course, Andrew Jones provides no data in his discussion. But I did collect and post data, now on 7 different driver models and 16 different driver samples (if I can count right, perhaps I need to consolidate them into one thread.) And of course I posted the only driver I ever measured to demonstrate significant break in effect, the HiVi B3N which is certainly an outlier. I am eager for the driver-theorists and materials experts on this thread to explain that observation
With the exception of the HiVi, demonstrating driver break-in as a small effect isn't surprising. I actually expect drivers to be designed to never operate in a frictional regime as a new set of brake pads (theorized in a manifesto above as a reasonable mechanism, while simultaneously confusing break-in with early life fail, maintenance fail, wear-out fail, with warm-up discussion thrown in to add confusion
I demonstrate over and over with measurements. Temperature is a larger effect than break-in. Let's just not run wild with this speaker warm-up thing.
Neumann KH 310A Review (Powered Monitor)
This is a review and detailed measurements of the Neumann KH 310A active monitor (speaker). It was kindly sent to me by the company for testing. I see it discounted to US $2,200 (each) as of this writing. This is one dense and heavy 3-way speaker: I was relieved to find "rack mount" ears...
Also, creep is misrepresented in that quote. Creep is actually the reversible part of deformation, also called hysteresis. I have measured this, you can actually see the effect of creep/hysteresis in some of my break-in test results if you look carefully.
Also, I do see lots of appeals to reason here (everybody knows that frictional forces blah blah...), and appeals to expertise (I work on cars, I am an XYZ-scientist, I'm involved with NASA space programs, etc...) I am a Physicist, I work in a manufacturing field where materials are modeled and tested for reliability for each underlying physical mechanism. I develop tests and experiments to be able to predict and screen for wear-out time to fail, early-life fail, random and systematic fails, on systems with critical reliability requirements and dramatic failure modes. If I hadn't made so many speaker driver tests in the course of my audio hobby I might be tempted to speculate on all sorts of mechanisms that cause my speakers to change, and lead myself to believe these are a significant part of my listening experience, and attribute my untested theories to what I think I hear. I would likely even defend my position due to my belief that my expertise is relevant and my anecdotal observations are unbiased (although I hope not, but I never can completely control my ego
A poorly made parts may break in/ wear much more,L due to parts rubbing each other or unstable materials, but I would assume those processes also varies greatly unit to unit. At such, if break in requires tens or even hundreds of hours to do so, the factory calibration/ QC would be economically impossible for most designs. Maybe those speakers using high unit variation parts without doing factory calibration would show more IRL break in (measurements and data needed), but I think for those who cared about breaking in, they should be aiming at the better designed/accurate ones no?
First and foremost it's BREAK-IN not BURN-IN, second a simple fact, from out of the box to day 7 all untouched HE BR, heavy suspension cone speakers
change. If you can't understand the simple principal of 2 clicks on a sub amp from 1:00 to 11:00. It's not difficult to understand. I achieve the same
SPL with the same test tone, BUT it takes less power to do it. The suspension is looser, do you understand THAT? I can lead you to water, if you want
to sample the water and question if the water has a ph of 6.8 vs 6.9 go ahead, I'm not stopping YOU. Test away. I'm getting a cup!
I don't measure normal things for FUN, IF I question break-in happening correctly, I measure and gather data. But to say it does happen in the rest
of the worlds but not in the audio world is as silly as saying you heard a tremendous change in using cable risers. It happens just how quickly that
happens is a different story. I'm looking a 2 18/18/21, 2 18/12/12, 4 12/10 sub builds. I've never done this before. LOL Every single one will go
through 5-7 days of changes, just like the last 120+
I'm saying if you don't have a clue what to check for or have a reason to check it, go listen to some music. Again just because what YOU have read or
experienced what you have, that is what it is, don't throw me in with "I have microphone crowd." 90% of the WAY they use a Mic and WHY is a whole lot
different for me. I'm more of a hands on, stethoscope, plan a room, build a room, screw the genius next door who had his built, guy.
Some people TALK about how it should sound, look, be, act, measure, and some make that happen to their satisfaction not the guy's next door or
the critic in the peanut gallery. Are you feelin me daddio? I ain't just a pretty face, believe it or not. I built my house and my system and my kitchen
cabinets, the babies crib, 600 + Allison, Cummins, Cat, Detroit, Deutz, Mac, industrial Ford, Wakashaw, Rolls Royce, Jaguar, VW, BMW, Audi, Volvo,
and friggin Vega engines.
The audio industry is still arguing about points for God's sake? Do you know how old, outdated, worthless, and just plain ugly point on speakers are?
Let me ask you the simplest of questions. Are you the same you were yesterday? Was there a place where you finally began to wipe your own bottom?
Guess what your heading BACK to that same place it just takes time. You don't have to experience something for it to happen.
BUT then again what is the definition of insanity?
1. You buy 5000 .01pf alu caps in glass tubes with silver coated copper leads and you have bought 50,000 total to date, they're for
opening and closing a trash can lid on a 15.00 trash can. You have had 2 failures out of 50,000. Are you going to check everyone?
2. NASA buys 500 .01pf alu caps in glass tubes with silver coated copper leads. They are part of the circuit that scrubs O2 for the
ISS. They have never had a failure with that cap. Are you going to measure everyone 5 times and pass it to three teams to make sure?
There is a time and a place to give a crap, but more importantly there is a time for me to feed my chickens.
YES, I did read the rest of the thread, why do you think I chimed in? I felt my stomach boiling, I think I plugged a stent reading it.
now this is going to insulting territory of just argue.. everything changes any micro second and never stops changing, so that is a moot point to discuss or argue about, the whole thing is does it exist in "PRACTICAL" or "AUDIBLE" form, insulting and arguing in a not so polite manner don't make you more credible, also ppl claiming what he or she does make no difference also, we have all sort of doctors or so on the net claiming all sort of weird things also..
back to to topic, hell yea every single driver changes with use, but once put inside a box, after a first few 10s of seconds the suspension compliance will be more or less stable, which is what most better drivers have done in the factory at QC station, for some simulations or data shown in a quick google: https://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/speaker-break-in-fact-or-fiction even with 30% of suspension compliance change in a mid range driver it practially don't change with peak difference being ~0.65db. now when seasonal temperature changes in the example of Amirm's KH80 data change just due to the small woofer changes from temperature showing a few db of difference across the FR, so when speaker is not considered temperature dependant with a recommended listening environmental temp since it is practically inaudible, the break-in is just as inaudible or practical "non-exist", unless you are the one who wanted to argue about the pH of water being 6.8 or 6.9 or a pack of 100g beef is 100.01 or 100.04g precisely...
with the very stiff suspension subs it may take more than the few 10s, but AFAIK nobody every showed a controlled experiment with data of power vs SPL on a brand new sub vs a 100 hours sub varies a lot, not to say the breaking in at 1min vs 20 hours or so.. of course when the suspension is very stiff it could take longer, but that is at most making it applicable to those special subs, not speaker in general. claiming the 1-2 clicks with same SPL without graphs showing the SPL and W isn't very convincing.
for the measuring every single one arguement it's even more simple: for some low cost models, yea those are all sampled QC only, but at even entry level of hifi realm, at least factory tours available in youtube, I've seen ATC and Focal did to all their drivers, Genelec and Neumann did calibrate every single speaker they produce, even with the data stored in factory and to the very entry level like the 8010, so yea, most higher quality vendors did measure every single driver they send out to the consumers, unless there are any transportation damage, the spider and suspension are already break/run/brun-in in the factory
I met some very interesting people at AH. I also met their mouth piece. He wasn't so mouthy AFTER HE shook my hand
Speaker Break In: Fact or Fiction?
Driver "break in", "burn in" or "run in" is a topic that's been debated in various forums for years. This topic continues to ignite occasional flame wars, fueled by the contributions of bothwww.audioholics.com
before covid. HE was banging on and letting ALL of AH bang on about Danny Richie and that guy at SR and that guy
and this guy. I could care less he was at the other end, keeping his mouth shut about others except the usual VMPS jab
he was so quick to inflict 10 years after the guy was dead.
Insult is about something that's not true or uncalled for about another person or their experience. What would you say to
someone that is telling you how to fly a space shuttle and you are the pilot?
I'll tell you the same thing, listen. read, watch and learn, we ain't landed yet.
Tell me AFTER you made your living for over 45 years how things happen in seconds because your read something on AH.
If you want to be insulted, told you're a liar, cloth hangers work, love AVRs, be told an AVR can be as good as any stereo and they
null test cable, go there. I don't even read their blather or support their cause. I started at the BOTTOM in the 60s no need to
go BACKWARDS. Null testing was incorporated on CANN bus systems in the late 60s for wire swapping within looms of analog
DC cabling and then in digital integration. We used it for wire smear (burnt wiring) into another circuit and isolation repair in
the field when digital was in its absolute infancy.
Who do you think developed ALL of the crap we use to listen to music? Top of the line engineers that were selected by NASA?
Music "stuff" were and are still at the BOTTOM of the heap as far as top of the class. There is no accountability for not knowing,
and actually believing herbal remedies for grounding problems work. That is the problem in today highly educated music world.
The rest of the REAL world passed them by as far as useful technology. It's been reduce and embellished to the point of why
bother with ALL the opinions of someone else when I (ME) did my due diligence way before AH was on paper in an 8086 with
two whole 360k floppy drives and a 300 baud modem. I'd rather read after AG or even WBF and both suck the big one as far
as over moderated and undereducated. There are the exceptions of corse where on ASR the exception is the absolute nutcase
vs high dollars has to equal great sound.
No break-in from who again? You're making my stents heat up and my stomach is boiling again. It's like trying to teach a Klingon
table manners. Worf was the exception!
Chicken feedin' time. Sorry important stuff to do.
Side note: I'm loading a pair of 21" pro subs today in 16cf 2" thick cabinets. Lets see how many DAYS it takes to sound correct and pass
the IM and break-in period. Anyone want to guess? Me neither, I'll let you know. We'll see if what has happened 100+ times
before happens 2 more times again. BTW the Neo 10 X 6 latus towers I've assembled took 30 seconds to sound correct only because
the passive XO was 3 years old and had at least 2,000 hours on TEFLON caps. No break-in depends on the definition you have contrived
not real world fact about everything else on earth, including my neighbors new dentures.
I told him to soak um in coffee they look stupid. Let me get my side grinder out and add some character to those new chicklets.
Regards
So where's your proof of that changes solely due to breaking in are? besides from what YOU said and not even measured.
Toole have done some blind testing on this subject as well as quite some ppl here tried to measure any difference in real life, nothing have been convincingly shows that break in is real in the audio world sense, at least not those 2000 hours use of cross overs and 100 hours of running the bass drivers. you're welcomed to get a boiled stomach if you try to convince ppl here without any data showing it have significant changes in real world, like how Amirm have shown the KH80 to have the bass shelf measured due to him doing it in a very cold garage vs in the summer.
Break-in is a phenomenon that primarily affects large subwoofers, where the stiffness of their suspension changes over time, leading to alterations in their response. An article about the phenomenon and how to reduce its effects: https://www.klippel.de/fileadmin/klippel/Bilder/Know-How/Literature/Papers/Aging of loudspeaker suspension_Klippel.pdf
Again, this is something happens mostly on 140db capable PA subwoofers.
It is a bit wild to say break-in does not exist. Its effects are inaudible with home speakers.
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MAB
Major Contributor
Yeah, I measured the effect on a bunch of speakers and posted the results here. It is quite small, like smaller than normal temperature variations! And break-in actually affects small woofers more than large woofers, because of the of relative stiffness of the spider (Cms). I showed the small woofer break-in effect too. While small woofers have some appreciable sound change, large don't, I demonstrated that. The paper and poster you are quoting are about accelerated mechanical aging to wear-out, the 100 hour power test the refer to is something you don't want to do to your speakers. In the videos I posted above, Andrew Jones discusses all of this and the physical mechanisms mentioned by Klippel, just in the context of normal speaker use rather than accelerated test to wear-out/failure.
Break-in is a phenomenon that primarily affects large subwoofers, where the stiffness of their suspension changes over time, leading to alterations in their response. An article about the phenomenon and how to reduce its effects: https://www.klippel.de/fileadmin/klippel/Bilder/Know-How/Literature/Papers/Aging of loudspeaker suspension_Klippel.pdf
Again, this is something happens mostly on 140db capable PA subwoofers.
It is a bit wild to say break-in does not exist. Its effects are inaudible with home speakers.
edit: typos
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sonitus mirus
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Ouch! Did you get it replaced? I mean the cat.
MAB
Major Contributor
Yes, no measurements, just words, and a defiant statement they don't need to measure. I'll be honest, most of it was incoherent.
Fortunately Toole has measured many, and has some very clear comments and conclusions, the changes were tiny, just as I have shown. I love that one round of testing was done just because a marketing person wouldn't stop with the break-in talk.
Floyd E. Toole, Sound Reproduction - Loudspeakers and Rooms, Chapter 17
that's exactly the passage in my mind, basically from various measurements, there did have some very tiny resultant changes in FR, but those changes, are far less than temperature or even your head/measurement point moves by a little bit, since we don't percieve sound difference from sitting still on a exact height mark or feels the sound gets worse when one fetch a glass of wine or coffee, that breaking in shouldn't be so noticable, while the amazing brain explains all those experiences wellYes, no measurements, just words, and a defiant statement they don't need to measure. I'll be honest, most of it was incoherent.
Fortunately Toole has measured many, and has some very clear comments and conclusions, the changes were tiny, just as I have shown. I love that one round of testing was done just because a marketing person wouldn't stop with the break-in talk.
Floyd E. Toole, Sound Reproduction - Loudspeakers and Rooms, Chapter 17
See also my earlier posting here. According to Neumann / Klein &Hummel break in happens fast and is almost always inaudible.
Unfortunately, your statement is not correct.
Let's take a closed subwoofer as an example.
If the compliance Cms increases significantly during break-in ("suspension is looser"), then various TSP parameter will also change.
The resonance frequency fs of the driver shifts to lower frequencies, Vas increases, Qts decreases,...
The enclosure volume of the subwoofer remains unchanged, which reduces the Qtc of the closed subwoofer.
This in turn leads to a change in the frequency response, roughly speaking below fc (which also shifts slightly) the sound pressure level increases slightly and above fc SPL decreases slightly in a certain frequency range.
For a 15'' subwoofer in 90L CB, increasing the compliance Cms by 40% would have roughly the effect shown below - in blue before the break-in and in black after the compliance Cms has increased by 40%:
So with a test tone below fc you will get the same SPL with a little less power and above fc you need a little more power for the same SPL (the statements are of course only valid as long as the TSP are valid, i.e. explicitly not in extreme ranges of the driver).
So if the "suspension is looser" it does not result in same SPL with less power - this only applies in a certain frequency range.
Let's stop right there. I don't need your examples of charts you produced from your drivers or anyone else's BUT MINE and MINE are
break-in right now as I type. As I stated. Things break-in, in the rest of the GD world and they break-in in the audio world, no matter what
you think, measure, repete, or refuse to accept. ALL thing change and all thing start at a point and end at a point.
Once you grasp that simple concept, you'll understand what every mechanic has learned from eternity past and will continue to understand
into eternity future OR they won't be mechanics. They are known as "Jacks of all trades, washouts, apprentices, or just plane thick."
There is absolutely no difference in any moving part with a service life attached. Please be respective of every mechanic on earth and DON'T
say they don't understand a frigging 3-400.00 speaker driver. OK! You are literally make a room of 13 working and retired operators and mechanics
laugh their collective asses off. Drillers, Operators mechanics all just laughing like friggin Hyenas. They made there living with .5-2.5 million dollar
machines and you're saying thing don't break-in. You're only making yourself look sillier by the second.
Next up, thing don't warm up? Right?
IF you're looking to HEAR or MEASURE what break-in is PLEASE don't look to the bottom of the Engineers ladder or someone that really like their
stereo. LOOK for what it is and is related to vs the length of time it takes to happen or if there is procedure. Why do they use break-in oil
in every piece of light, medium to heavy duty piece of equipment including ALL broadcast turntables and most transcription in the broadcast
field?
What you have and most people in your position have clearly misunderstood is the break-in of the past, that consumed a lot of our lives is
gone from days of tightening a packing gland on a water well pump KNOWING it will (break-in) and work with less effort and finally quit
leaking water after adjusting the packing, la tee da. Because it may happen in 45 seconds with a TT motor, a few days for the belt to seat,
stretch de-powder, and it may take a month for the spindle bushing to seat, vertical and lateral. It still breaks-in.
ALL heavy equipment runs cooler, consume less fuel, hydraulic controls become less sensitive, all cylinder packing runs cooler, even the air
bag and oscillator on the seat make less noise and function smooter. When that happen, active maintenance begins to SLOW the process
of controllable expected wear. No ONE in my field questions how quick some things happen and with most digital STUFF it's 45 seconds
or bust. If it works for 45 seconds it's likely to last 45 years.
Analog is not the same world at ALL and cone speakers are in that category, like it or not. All my old Mac valve gear sound better as new
PIO caps, resistors work or pop, control pots are cleaned and worked and valves are reseated, pins serviced and sockets cleaned. Why
do you think they stink for over 24 hours? Rebuilt SS and valve units STINK! Why? Why do they STOP smelling? Don't tell me, I got
used to it.
Why do new valves have tube fire 5 hours into a "burn-in"?
Why do many types of caps change color when they're used for the first few times?
Why has every single hydraulic pump that is brand new make less noise within the first 2-3 hours.
Why does hydraulic temperature DROP after the first 2-3 hours of work and stay there for the rest of its service life?
Why do crew chiefs insist that ANY professional driver warm-up or break-in the face and side wall of a new set of tires until they reach
a thermal threshold of wait vs RACE via thermal imaging?
I know AUDIO is different, it's magic it defies Henry F&%Kin' Ford. Like he said "I'm just an engineer," but even he named his kid Edsel
The car wasn't to bad the name really sucked. First hand experience with a FEW Edsels. First car I ever drove at 4 years old. 1958-9?
Regards, maybe?
MAB
Major Contributor
I hope you understand, all of these examples that you list (brakes, tires, pump seals, etc.) are operated in a different frictional regime than a speaker driver and the speaker's spider. While the frictional mechanisms you cite do happen in a driver, they are orders of magnitude below other change mechanisms. Many things are operated in a regime where the forces you cite are negligible, not just speakers. We should be happy for this. Your appeal to reason is misguided since you ignore the wildly different use-condition of a tire and a spider.
It also seems you haven't read any of the examples of actual measured break-in (it's non-zero, but quite small), or understood the one exception posted. You ignore the evidence, and belligerently provide none of your own. And these are quite easy to measurements of break-in changes, and temperature sensitivity, etc. You could also review the Toole and Andrew Jones references.
Now it sounds like trolling... drilling rigs, cars, etc. are way different stuffs.
Engines are working in a highpressure/force environment, they break in, because the machine process isn't completely smooth, and when lateral pressure component in a piston pushes it against the wall, it wears out those imperfections and brought out by the motor oil, which you drain away regularly, does your speaker drain away the wearing out bits inside the voice coil?
Brakes need to operate in optimal temperature, and the brand new brakes, once warmed up, essentially only wears down, any break in process happens in the first few turns of the first braking action to chip away the manufacturing pointy bits.
Tyres in F1 are warmed up during initial zig sagging pattern, cause it need the optimal and stable working temperature for the rubber to be grippy, and temperature makes the air pressure achieve the level of vigorous driving, so the contact area of the tyre is optimal, not wearing down the tyre or breaking in. during long wait times now they use heating device to keep it at working temperature and pressure and not breaking them in.
Caps... you have caps changing colours but a ton don't, unless it bursts out the fluids inside or gets dirty... a 10 years old cap in a DAC looks essentially same as a new one except dye discolouration through time.
and the utmost important part puzzles me if you are serious and not trolling
why everyone else's speaker or driver, with measurement isn't important and only your own speaker, under your own subjective claims and not even dare measure before and after is important? it literally makes me smile and have a nice cup of coffee
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All utter nonsense. When you've actually measured the parameter changes of a speaker AND the impact on the sound from the speaker we might have something to talk about (no-one denies that parameters change - it is the magnitude and audibility of the changes that is being questioned).
Until then it is just hand waving.
Why would they?
You seem to prefer trying to browbeat people into believing you, rather than attempting to engage in good faith by providing more than ever angrier words.
That's enough in this thread.
Andysu
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destill water , when brands say they are destill and my TDS shows it slightly red 240 , i know its not true , when i destill the water remove the imperfections it then shows reading TDS 003 green and that is good
anyway i keep drinking destill with ice cubes and fruit squash , speaker break in is least of my worries
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