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DMS said that harmonic distortion makes the sound pleasing

MakeMineVinyl

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Why would you like what those variables are doing? The artist could have already done that in the recording. You just double up on it.

I like what those variables are doing because, being an engineer myself, I can and do control those variables. I know exactly what they are doing and if at some point I don't like what they are doing I can change the circuitry to the point where I like the result.

Frankly, the 'artists' don't impress me all that much. I'm a composer and recording engineer myself, and I certainly don't hold the results of my work to such high regard that I think that it cannot be improved or modified to taste down the road by somebody who may have far different preferences in the way they like things to sound. Artists and recording engineers are just as gullible and subject to bias as anybody else, and certainly aren't the ultimate authority on everything audio. There are plenty of horrible recordings which prove this.
 

Inner Space

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Frankly, the 'artists' don't impress me all that much.

As a sidebar, I have to agree. I worked with a significant number of artists whose only "intent" was to make it to the next pay check or the next fix. And none of them seemed to care about anything beyond the final mix. They never considered the domestic listening experience might come out different.
 

tmtomh

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I like what those variables are doing because, being an engineer myself, I can and do control those variables. I know exactly what they are doing and if at some point I don't like what they are doing I can change the circuitry to the point where I like the result.

Frankly, the 'artists' don't impress me all that much. I'm a composer and recording engineer myself, and I certainly don't hold the results of my work to such high regard that I think that it cannot be improved or modified to taste down the road by somebody who may have far different preferences in the way they like things to sound. Artists and recording engineers are just as gullible and subject to bias as anybody else, and certainly aren't the ultimate authority on everything audio. There are plenty of horrible recordings which prove this.

I agree with this, to a degree - there are plenty of poor recordings, poor mixes, and poor masterings out there.

At the same time, I continue to believe strongly that the best approach is to strive for maximum fidelity from my system, with modifications to the sonic profile being something I can enable, disable, and modify on a recording to recording basis.

My main rason for preferring not to "bake in" a single, always-on coloration to my system is that for all the surprisingly bad recordings out there, there are just as many surprisingly good ones. The idea of setting up my system so that it "does not pass on" certain details or attributes of bad recordings is troubling to me, because I would not want that system to "smooth out the edges" of good recordings - and I simply do not believe that tubes or any other technology is perfectly suited to only "leave out the bad stuff" while preserving the full fidelity of "the good stuff."

To each their own, though.
 

MakeMineVinyl

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The idea of setting up my system so that it "does not pass on" certain details or attributes of bad recordings is troubling to me, because I would not want that system to "smooth out the edges" of good recordings - and I simply do not believe that tubes or any other technology is perfectly suited to only "leave out the bad stuff" while preserving the full fidelity of "the good stuff."

To each their own, though.

The electronics in my system can be adjusted widely to either 'editorialize' or be 'truthful' to what the source is by simple adjustments in such things as feedback and bypassing certain stages in the chain among other things, depending on the recording, my mood etc. You're painting a whole category of electronics with an overly wide brush by assuming that they have to modify the sound all the time and can never be as transparent as any 'state of the art' piece. True, in most cases with most listeners, designing one's own gear is not feasible, but that obviously doesn't apply to everybody.
 

tmtomh

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The electronics in my system can be adjusted widely to either 'editorialize' or be 'truthful' to what the source is by simple adjustments in such things as feedback and bypassing certain stages in the chain among other things, depending on the recording, my mood etc. You're painting a whole category of electronics with an overly wide brush by assuming that they have to modify the sound all the time and can never be as transparent as any 'state of the art' piece. True, in most cases with most listeners, designing one's own gear is not feasible, but that obviously doesn't apply to everybody.

Fair enough.
 

levimax

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The electronics in my system can be adjusted widely to either 'editorialize' or be 'truthful' to what the source is by simple adjustments in such things as feedback and bypassing certain stages in the chain among other things, depending on the recording, my mood etc.
Sounds like you go way beyond "tone controls" but at the end of the day is anything besides FR changed with these adjustments? Do you actually lower feedback to get enough extra distortion to actually hear a difference? No judgement just curious.
 

spartaman64

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The producer, artist and engineer carefully craft the sound they want including the distortion in the right places..........and then you pull it through your playback gear and add random distortions? What kind of logic is that? Its an insult to the artist.
idk sometimes i get something at a restaurant and i want a little more salt or pepper on it. i personally prefer transparent sound but i understand why people would go for a more colored sound
 

MakeMineVinyl

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Sounds like you go way beyond "tone controls" but at the end of the day is anything besides FR changed with these adjustments? Do you actually lower feedback to get enough extra distortion to actually hear a difference? No judgement just curious.
Applying feedback reduces distortion, so yes, with no feedback I can hear the added harmonic distortion. This is mostly even order distortion in the case of the SET amplifier. Remember, my HF horns which operate above 500Hz are 107dB efficient so anything which changes to signal-to-distortion radio is very likely to make an audible difference. The frequency response of the electronics in my system are essentially ruler flat in their bandwidth of concern. So I don't for instance expect the SET amplifier to have to deal with any bass frequencies. Personally, I have a very high sensitivity to distortion. Although I love analog tape, I routinely hear residual distortion on recordings which were sourced from some tapes. Since most American tape recordings were made with the NAB equalization standard, the biggest source of distortion I routinely hear is saturation distortion in the low bass caused by the boost in the bass frequencies resulting from this NAB equalization. Since this boost is not reflected in the reading on the VU meters on the tape machines during recording, the distortion often slips by.

I also have variable 'voicing filters' on the outputs of the active crossovers which serve the purpose that similar voicing does in passive crossover systems. I adjust these frequently depending on the music and the recording.
 

Koeitje

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I like what those variables are doing because, being an engineer myself, I can and do control those variables. I know exactly what they are doing and if at some point I don't like what they are doing I can change the circuitry to the point where I like the result.

Frankly, the 'artists' don't impress me all that much. I'm a composer and recording engineer myself, and I certainly don't hold the results of my work to such high regard that I think that it cannot be improved or modified to taste down the road by somebody who may have far different preferences in the way they like things to sound. Artists and recording engineers are just as gullible and subject to bias as anybody else, and certainly aren't the ultimate authority on everything audio. There are plenty of horrible recordings which prove this.

If you are controlling those variables you aren't using a source that has a fixed sound profiles like the Audio-GD that started this thread. So I don't know why you are arguing with me.

idk sometimes i get something at a restaurant and i want a little more salt or pepper on it. i personally prefer transparent sound but i understand why people would go for a more colored sound
Sure, that is my point. But you aren't going to throw the same amount of salt on every meal you get regardless if it needs it or not. That's the point I'm making. So you want a DSP or PEQ, but you don't want gear that always pushes the treble (for example).
 

rdenney

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The electronics in my system can be adjusted widely to either 'editorialize' or be 'truthful' to what the source is by simple adjustments in such things as feedback and bypassing certain stages in the chain among other things, depending on the recording, my mood etc. You're painting a whole category of electronics with an overly wide brush by assuming that they have to modify the sound all the time and can never be as transparent as any 'state of the art' piece. True, in most cases with most listeners, designing one's own gear is not feasible, but that obviously doesn't apply to everybody.
Well, yes, but you can't exactly extrapolate what you've done with your system to any common user experience.

The whole point is to do things on purpose, so that we tailor the sound to what we want, not have it tailored for us without our knowing. You've found a way to do things on purpose, but that doesn't translate to most of the people who buy stuff to be cool at the next audio club meeting, or to spout off adjectives to make themselves look like one of the cool kids on A'gon.

Here is the spectrum of me playing a 58-Hz low Bb on a tuba:

york_fft_low.jpg


(Yes, it was a long time ago when I did this.)

Note the harmonics. The strongest components, even stronger than the fundamental, are the fourth and sixth overtones. These are what gives the tuba (at least as played by a moron like me) its characteristic sound.

Now, let's add some second-harmonic distortion. (I haven't done this actually--this is a thought experiment.) I would expect to see a stronger set of even-order harmonics--the 116-Hz harmonic would be stronger, and its second harmonic, the 232-Hz harmonic, would also be stronger, etc.

Okay, if we were to record a euphonium (bugle is half the length of the tuba measured above, and therefore nominally pitched an octave higher, but very much the same bugle shape and tonal profile, being really a tenor tuba instead of a contrabass tuba) playing a 58-Hz Bb, we would get a lower fundamental and higher harmonics. This is because a 58-Hz Bb is a "pedal" tone on the euphonium, while an octave above the pedal on a contrabass tuba, and pedals are harder to play with a full and stable tone. And the euphonium player would have to play louder to achieve the same level, because the euphonium is half the linear dimensionless ratios compared to the contrabass tuba, and simply doesn't propagate as much vibrating air. But playing louder adds to the upper harmonics in a way that signals "louder" more clearly than the difference in SPL. Louder is as much about timbre as SPL for brass players.

My point is that a recorded contrabass tuba, played back on a system with perceptible even-order harmonic distortion, sounds more like a euphonium.

Dammit, I want a contrabass tuba to sound like a contrabass tuba. I want a French horn to sound like a French horn, and not a trombone. I want a trombone to sound like a trombone, and not a trumpet. I don't want any confusion between a standard trumpet and a piccolo trumpet.

I play in a brass quintet routinely, and have done so professionally (well, that's an overstatement--let's say I've been occasionally paid). I know what these instruments sound like in real life. I want to listen to the Boston Brass, or the Empire Brass, or the Canadian Brass, and hear the differences in those players. (I've played on the same stage with two of those groups and know what they sound like in real life, too, including the difference in sound between Sam Pilafian, Boston and Empire--RIP--and Chuck Daellenbach, Canadian Brass, despite that both used similar instruments.) Systems that seek to enhance my listening experience without my permission take me one further step away from what it was like to be in the presence of their sound. My mind can account for the difference in room effects, but timbre is important.

Now, I'll bet that hundreds of thousands of people (since that seems to be the number that validates a notion) don't have any idea what a tuba is supposed to sound like (my teachers might include me in that category), and they might like it better if it sounds more like a euphonium. Frankly, I don't care. But the desire for live orchestras to sound like reproduced classical music has led to orchestras trying to play louder and louder, with more and more focus on technical perfection, and bigger tone to be louder without the timbral effect that listeners interpret as "louder". And this has not been good for music or for performers. That is, however, a significant digression.

Rick "who doesn't much care about the female lounge singers most reviewers seem to think must be enhanced" Denney
 
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tmtomh

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Well, yes, but you can't exactly extrapolate what you've done with your system to any common user experience.

The whole point is to do things on purpose, so that we tailor the sound to what we want, not have it tailored for us without our knowing. You've found a way to do things on purpose, but that doesn't translate to most of the people who buy stuff to be cool at the next audio club meeting, or to spout off adjectives to make themselves look like one of the cool kids on A'gon.

Here is the spectrum of me playing a 58-Hz low Bb on a tuba:

york_fft_low.jpg


(Yes, it was a long time ago when I did this.)

Note the harmonics. The strongest components, even stronger than the fundamental, are the fourth and sixth overtones. These are what gives the tuba (at least as played by a moron like me) its characteristic sound.

Now, let's add some second-harmonic distortion. (I haven't done this actually--this is a thought experiment.) I would expect to see a stronger set of even-order harmonics--the 116-Hz harmonic would be stronger, and its second harmonic, the 232-Hz harmonic, would also be stronger, etc.

Okay, if we were to record a euphonium (bugle is half the length of the tuba measured above, and therefore nominally pitched an octave higher, but very much the same bugle shape and tonal profile, being really a tenor tuba instead of a contrabass tuba) playing a 58-Hz Bb, we would get a lower fundamental and higher harmonics. This is because a 58-Hz Bb is a "pedal" tone on the euphonium, while an octave above the pedal on a contrabass tuba, and pedals are harder to play with a full and stable tone. And the euphonium player would have to play louder to achieve the same level, because the euphonium is half the linear dimensionless ratios compared to the contrabass tuba, and simply doesn't propagate as much vibrating air. But playing louder adds to the upper harmonics in a way that signals "louder" more clearly than the difference in SPL. Louder is as much about timbre as SPL for brass players.

My point is that a recorded contrabass tuba, played back on a system with perceptible even-order harmonic distortion, sounds more like a euphonium.

Dammit, I want a contrabass tuba to sound like a contrabass tuba. I want a French horn to sound like a French horn, and not a trombone. I want a trombone to sound like a trombone, and not a trumpet. I don't want any confusion between a standard trumpet and a piccolo trumpet.

I play in a brass quintet routinely, and have done so professionally (well, that's an overstatement--let's say I've been occasionally paid). I know what these instruments sound like in real life. I want to listen to the Boston Brass, or the Empire Brass, or the Canadian Brass, and hear the differences in those players. (I've played on the same stage with two of those groups and know what they sound like in real life, too, including the difference in sound between Sam Pilafian, Boston and Empire--RIP--and Chuck Daellenbach, Canadian Brass, despite that both used similar instruments.) Systems that seek to enhance my listening experience without my permission take me one further step away from what it was like to be in the presence of their sound. My mind can account for the difference in room effects, but timbre is important.

Now, I'll bet that hundreds of thousands of people (since that seems to be the number that validates a notion) don't have any idea what a tuba is supposed to sound like (my teachers might include me in that category), and they might like it better if it sounds more like a euphonium. Frankly, I don't care. But the desire for live orchestras to sound like reproduced classical music has led to orchestras trying to play louder and louder, with more and more focus on technical perfection, and bigger tone to be louder without the timbral effect that listeners interpret as "louder". And this has not been good for music or for performers. That is, however, a significant digression.

Rick "who doesn't much care about the female lounge singers most reviewers seem to think must be enhanced" Denney

Great explanation, well said. Thanks!

P.S. "Dammit, I want a contrabass tuba to sound like a contrabass tuba" is just one of many statements in this comment that are sig-worthy. :)
 

Wes

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Who wants to buy our Euphonicizer!!??? It is exclusively manufactured by Phlogiston Audio using advanced psycho acoustics to improve your system.

Just turn the knob to Artist to get what the original artist intended

or to Mixer to get what the recording engineer intended

or to AutoEuphonicise to get the latest in Autoerotic Sound Quality!
 

Jim Matthews

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Dammit, I want a contrabass tuba to sound like a contrabass tuba. I want a French horn to sound like a French horn, and not a trombone. I want a trombone to sound like a trombone, and not a trumpet. I don't want any confusion between a standard trumpet and a piccolo trumpet.

I play in a brass quintet routinely, and have done so professionally (well, that's an overstatement--let's say I've been occasionally paid). I know what these instruments sound like in real life.

Rick "who doesn't much care about the female lounge singers most reviewers seem to think must be enhanced" Denney

This is an important point. Anyone who has attended a performance from a tight orchestra knows we're missing a lot of what goes down.

It is my opinion that "Big and Loud" bombast outsells subdued pieces because few get to hear one live. There's no greater achievement than everybody coming in on time, at tempo and in tune.

PS - Don't sell yourself short: 80% of the people never do anything at all creative. Kudos are due those that do.

Kudos
 

Trif

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Who wants to buy our Euphonicizer!!??? It is exclusively manufactured by Phlogiston Audio using advanced psycho acoustics to improve your system.

Just turn the knob to Artist to get what the original artist intended

or to Mixer to get what the recording engineer intended

or to AutoEuphonicise to get the latest in Autoerotic Sound Quality!
I was going to tease Wes about this, saying "it's been done!", but when I looked up the name of the product I came across this:

"Some would classify an exciter as a type of distortion effect. However, it’s really more than that. An exciter adds saturation to the signal frequencies in the higher ranges (3k and up). This produces more overtones and adds richness and crispness to your mix. It enhances the sound where EQ alone can’t seem to get it.
The effect was originally discovered by accident, when the pro audio company Aphex found that playing a track simultaneously with a thin, distorted signal of itself added clarity to the overall sound. Since then, a handful of similar effects–enhancers, vitalizers, etc–have come out, all adding brightness or fullness to your mix by applying an EQ and distortion combination. Dolby even incorporated the technology into its audio components to produce their exclusive enhanced sound.
You can recreate the effect of Aphex’s original exciter by adding some distortion linked to a high pass filter.
" - sageaudio.com (my bold)

Audiophoolia for mix engineers. Just turn it down until you can't quite hear it.
 

tmtomh

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I was going to tease Wes about this, saying "it's been done!", but when I looked up the name of the product I came across this:

"Some would classify an exciter as a type of distortion effect. However, it’s really more than that. An exciter adds saturation to the signal frequencies in the higher ranges (3k and up). This produces more overtones and adds richness and crispness to your mix. It enhances the sound where EQ alone can’t seem to get it.
The effect was originally discovered by accident, when the pro audio company Aphex found that playing a track simultaneously with a thin, distorted signal of itself added clarity to the overall sound. Since then, a handful of similar effects–enhancers, vitalizers, etc–have come out, all adding brightness or fullness to your mix by applying an EQ and distortion combination. Dolby even incorporated the technology into its audio components to produce their exclusive enhanced sound.
You can recreate the effect of Aphex’s original exciter by adding some distortion linked to a high pass filter.
" - sageaudio.com (my bold)

Audiophoolia for mix engineers. Just turn it down until you can't quite hear it.

Exciters can be a useful production tool - but you have to start with a very clean signal, because they add 2nd order harmonics to everything, including distortion already present in the source. One of the most common uses - or I should say misuses - of exciter plugins by consumers and self-styled prosumers is to try to add more high end to dull recordings, for example old rock bootleg tapes from the 1970s. The exciter does indeed add sparkle, presence, and "life" - but it also adds a ton of distortion, because a digital file sourced from a cassette dub of a cassette recording made from the soundboard at a 1973 Led Zeppelin show is going to have so much distortion on it already that the exciter is going to produce a godawful high-end hash.

Regardless, yes, exciters are proof that harmonic distortion can be euphonic.
 

audiofooled

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Music is (almost) never played with instruments that do not harmonically distort their fundamental frequencies.

It's a major factor in what gives different instruments their unique sound.

The closest I've come to finding an "instrument" that does not create harmonic distortions was blowing across the mouth of a beer bottle.

Beer Bottle - 0.4% "distortion" of the fundamental frequency

View attachment 133041

A single electric Bass Guitar note, no effects added, just the signal picked up from the string, which can be interpreted as a sine wave with 22.7% distortion from its harmonic content.

View attachment 133042

It doesn't surprise me that some folks may prefer (or claim to prefer) a little added distortion in their playback.

I don't.

Me neither. Each of the musical instruments have their distinct and very intricate vibrational modes which are tuned to be able to work together in an orchestra. Now that you mentioned it, a beer bottle (struck on the neck with a hard object). Plucked string (guitar), with it's own distinct vibrational modes (Gibson Hummingbird) is what gives it it's unique timbre. The bulk of the modes are in the midrange and each of the harmonics has it's own time domain characteristics, depending on the way it's being played. What is interesting to me is that harmonics are much quieter than the fundamentals and if you were to play it back with even remote fidelity you would need quite a lot of energy, clarity and precision in the midrange. I know for a fact that there are good recordings which represent it quite well, also less good ones, but the system should be neutral and capable enough to maintain a truthful level of reproduction.
To my ears, small bookshelf speakers were never sufficient enough to maintain such level of clarity (read lack of distortion) at an SPL reqired to hear (and feel) these small details in the timbre and convince me that this is truly a grand piano, or double bass, or whatever, and don't add any coloration to voices and other stuff. Artificial added distortion may be a patch for this in some cases but then you end up in a system which is only "good for" certain genres of music.
As another daft "car analogy", there's this: https://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/infrastructure/a20082/route-66-musical-highway/
So, if you don't like the "timbre" of your car, would you care to make your wheels less round, even square perhaps?
 
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