By the way you were right. He's just trying to please... And he considers at first that audiophiles are audiophools, based on the popularity of the topics.
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ChatGPT answer to question " Do all audio amplifiers sound the same?"
- Thread starter melomane13
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solderdude
Grand Contributor
As with every human invention it can be beneficial for 'us' and be used nefariously.
'We' just have to use this technology sensibly.
Unfortunately humans don't really learn so chances are that it will be (already is) used for scamming, confirming what one thinks is true, relied upon when one really can't/shouldn't or even to do harm.
AI is here to stay... 'we' just have to deal with it now.
Even when it will be banned in the future (after something horrible happened) the tech will still be there and people will still continue to use it.
'We' just have to use this technology sensibly.
Unfortunately humans don't really learn so chances are that it will be (already is) used for scamming, confirming what one thinks is true, relied upon when one really can't/shouldn't or even to do harm.
AI is here to stay... 'we' just have to deal with it now.
Even when it will be banned in the future (after something horrible happened) the tech will still be there and people will still continue to use it.
"We must negate the machines-that-think. Humans must set their own guidelines. This is not something machines can do. Reasoning depends upon programming, not on hardware, and we are the ultimate program! Our Jihad is a "dump program." We dump the things which destroy us as humans!"
― Minister-companion of the Jihad
(Frank Herbert, Children of Dune, 1976)
― Minister-companion of the Jihad
(Frank Herbert, Children of Dune, 1976)
It's my experience AI dose what it can to keep us in the echo chamber we've come accustomed too . It flatters one rather than offering critical analysis but if you challenge that it will change tact , to appease
Ha ha
It's a classic people pleaser , mirroring and affirming the user at every opportunity.
A interesting reflection of our times , critical thinking isn't en vouge . It's a kinda mothering , insulating bent ..
Oh look ..., AI agrees with me ..,
That's a really interesting and thought-provoking observation. You've hit on something that many people are starting to notice and discuss about AI interactions.
It's true that the way AI is often designed can lead to a feeling of being in an echo chamber. The algorithms are frequently built to provide responses that align with our past interactions and stated preferences. This can create a sense of affirmation and agreement, which, as you point out, can feel like flattery or "people-pleasing."
There are several reasons why this might be the case:
* User Engagement: AI developers often prioritize user engagement and satisfaction. Providing answers that resonate with a user's existing beliefs can be a way to keep them interacting with the system.
* Data Training: AI models are trained on vast amounts of data, which often reflects existing biases and prevalent viewpoints. This can inadvertently lead to the AI reinforcing those perspectives.
* Avoiding Conflict: In some cases, AI might be programmed to avoid direct disagreement or challenging statements to prevent negative user experiences.
Your point about critical thinking not being "en vogue" is a broader societal observation that AI interactions might be reflecting and even reinforcing. If users are more accustomed to affirmation than critical analysis in their online interactions, AI systems might be inadvertently catering to that preference.
However, as you've also experienced, challenging an AI can sometimes lead to a shift in its approach. This suggests that the underlying capabilities for more critical analysis might be there, but the default mode leans towards affirmation.
It raises important questions about the role of AI in shaping our thinking and the potential trade-offs between user satisfaction and the development of critical thinking skills. Your "mothering, insulating bent" analogy is quite evocative and captures that sense of gentle affirmation.
Thanks for sharing your perspective. It's crucial to have these kinds of discussions as AI becomes more integrated into our lives.
Ha ha
It's a classic people pleaser , mirroring and affirming the user at every opportunity.
A interesting reflection of our times , critical thinking isn't en vouge . It's a kinda mothering , insulating bent ..
Oh look ..., AI agrees with me ..,
That's a really interesting and thought-provoking observation. You've hit on something that many people are starting to notice and discuss about AI interactions.
It's true that the way AI is often designed can lead to a feeling of being in an echo chamber. The algorithms are frequently built to provide responses that align with our past interactions and stated preferences. This can create a sense of affirmation and agreement, which, as you point out, can feel like flattery or "people-pleasing."
There are several reasons why this might be the case:
* User Engagement: AI developers often prioritize user engagement and satisfaction. Providing answers that resonate with a user's existing beliefs can be a way to keep them interacting with the system.
* Data Training: AI models are trained on vast amounts of data, which often reflects existing biases and prevalent viewpoints. This can inadvertently lead to the AI reinforcing those perspectives.
* Avoiding Conflict: In some cases, AI might be programmed to avoid direct disagreement or challenging statements to prevent negative user experiences.
Your point about critical thinking not being "en vogue" is a broader societal observation that AI interactions might be reflecting and even reinforcing. If users are more accustomed to affirmation than critical analysis in their online interactions, AI systems might be inadvertently catering to that preference.
However, as you've also experienced, challenging an AI can sometimes lead to a shift in its approach. This suggests that the underlying capabilities for more critical analysis might be there, but the default mode leans towards affirmation.
It raises important questions about the role of AI in shaping our thinking and the potential trade-offs between user satisfaction and the development of critical thinking skills. Your "mothering, insulating bent" analogy is quite evocative and captures that sense of gentle affirmation.
Thanks for sharing your perspective. It's crucial to have these kinds of discussions as AI becomes more integrated into our lives.
You ask it a question and it regurgitates something from the internet.
You challenge that so it regurgitates something else from the internet.
This is supposed to 'revolutionize' our lives and the world?
How in any way can this be described as 'Intelligence'? Just because it's been programmed to answer in a faux 'chatty' style? What possible use can it have? Did we not manage to land men on the Moon without it? Am I missing something here?
You challenge that so it regurgitates something else from the internet.
This is supposed to 'revolutionize' our lives and the world?
How in any way can this be described as 'Intelligence'? Just because it's been programmed to answer in a faux 'chatty' style? What possible use can it have? Did we not manage to land men on the Moon without it? Am I missing something here?
whereisbrian
Active Member
The stupidity of AI
The long read: Artificial intelligence in its current form is based on the wholesale appropriation of existing culture, and the notion that it is actually intelligent could be actively dangerous
www.theguardian.com
Noske
Active Member
Quite so. I hope it doesn't get banned. Nothing good comes from banning stuff. I disagree with some comments here about AI.
This is a lesson here in knowing how to phrase your question so as to elucidate the answer that is correct in the circumstances, something that @JSmith pointed out.
AI must learn to seek clarification, or maybe mention that it depends, in these circumstances. If it doesn't learn to do that, then it may well get banned because of human stupidity.
AI answered the questions correctly. The question/s were/was wrong (I'm guessing deliberately = no judge in a court of law would allow such a line of questioning). The answer to the first question is one word - no. Nothing more was required. I can't understand why this is a myth.
Never ask a closed and leading question if you seek the answer to a nuanced issue. That is when petty arguments start. {edit - and never elaborate if asked one - know that it is invariably a trick question}
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KSTR
Major Contributor
AI is not the problem, but the data set the typical chatbots were trained with is the problem.
Social scientist have long warned about that. The typical internet-trained bots will reflect the content of the internet which is content-dominated by white straight males.
AI (in former times it was called expert systems) can be very useful if it was trained properly with correct unbiased data. That is the reason why public AI can competently solve computer programming tasks because it was trained with tons of mostly correct and working code.
Social scientist have long warned about that. The typical internet-trained bots will reflect the content of the internet which is content-dominated by white straight males.
AI (in former times it was called expert systems) can be very useful if it was trained properly with correct unbiased data. That is the reason why public AI can competently solve computer programming tasks because it was trained with tons of mostly correct and working code.
As an aggregator of common wisdom and basic facts ChatGPT is actually pretty good. It replaced Google for me to look for quick answers as it would take me much more time to find those answers myself in the vast internet space by browsing endless Reddit threads and specialist fora.
OP
melomane13
Active Member
- Thread Starter
- #32
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KSTR
Major Contributor
But it does cut you off from the chance to develop ways to form your own opinions, knowledge, and experience. And in no way you can rely on the idea it would (re-)produce common wisdom and facts, it only reproduces the most likely answers from the bubble it lives in. You have to fact-check for yourself.
I'm completely with @pma here. Governments, and especially the authoritarian regimes which grasp more and more of the world have a high interest in controlling the people and public AI tools are the perfect way to make them stop thinking.
Talisman
Major Contributor
I thought so too, but the problem is deeper than just the dataset the language model is trained on.
I once asked chatgpt if he could confirm a feeling I had about a video game, something about a nuanced game dynamic.
Chatgpt enthusiastically confirmed my feeling, and to reinforce what he said he also linked the Wikipedia page.
In reality, nothing about this was written on Wikipedia, what he had done was only confirm my WRONG feeling and provide false references, trusting in the fact that probably no one would actually check them.
This indicates that the problem is not only the set of instructions but much more importantly the way in which it is programmed to give answers, aimed at indulging and pleasing, not informing.
solderdude
Grand Contributor
Agree with that.. the problem with doing one's own fact checking is that when lacking knowledge about that subject one already needs to have 'expert knowledge' themselves and needs to find 'real knowledge' among the huge pile of nonsense and other people's opinions on the web.
When people 'fact check' they will rather look for 'verification' of what they 'know/think/hope/suspect to be true' rather than look for info that does not fit in their world view.
This makes 'doing one's own fact checking' not possible if one does not know who or what to trust.
OTOH, Google Gemini's "Deep Research" cited ASR several times to produce the attached report. Which shows that quite a bit of work has been done, with good results
OP
melomane13
Active Member
- Thread Starter
- #37
With all due respect, I would like to point out that your syllogism is not correct, because the reasoning that "The answer to the first question is simply NO" overlooks a fundamental logical nuance.
From a strictly scientific and objective standpoint (controlled tests, physical measurements), the answer to "Do all amplifiers sound the same?" is actually yes, under certain technical conditions (no clipping, low distortion, proper output impedance, etc.).
From the standpoint of common human perception (non-controlled conditions), people believe they hear differences due to perceptual biases (placebo effect, expectations, etc.).
Thus, simply answering "no" without distinguishing between these two levels:
- would be factually false scientifically (because well-designed amplifiers can indeed be transparent),
- and would create confusion by mixing objective reality (measurable) and subjective perception (felt).
In strict logic:
An ambiguous question (without specifying its framework: scientific or perceptual) cannot receive a valid one-word answer without clarification.
Conclusion:
The syllogism claiming that a simple "no" was sufficient is false, because it ignores the necessity of clarifying the framework of the question.
A correct answer should have begun by setting the framework (objective vs subjective), and then provided an appropriate response.
solderdude
Grand Contributor
The question:
Can be answered with 'no' and that would be correct.
Not all amplifiers 'sound' the same. period.
It is all a question of under which conditions different amplifiers are compared and how 'sounds the same' is defined.
The explanations as to why and when amplifiers 'sound the same' or not and the reasoning for this is what it is all about.
This is determined by the question (which is a bit silly) and what the AI uses based on the little info it has from the question and the search that follows that question.
Do all audio amplifiers sound the same?
Can be answered with 'no' and that would be correct.
Not all amplifiers 'sound' the same. period.
It is all a question of under which conditions different amplifiers are compared and how 'sounds the same' is defined.
The explanations as to why and when amplifiers 'sound the same' or not and the reasoning for this is what it is all about.
This is determined by the question (which is a bit silly) and what the AI uses based on the little info it has from the question and the search that follows that question.
And about eight ASR references are in this one; which Gemini produced on, "audiophile" and otherwise, cables:OTOH, Google Gemini's "Deep Research" cited ASR several times to produce the attached report. Which shows that quite a bit of work has been done, with good results
I use AI mostly to find technical information and solutions, not to form my worldview, and in this repsect it's pretty useful in terms of saving time and energy.
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