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DMS said that harmonic distortion makes the sound pleasing

pozz

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The implication is in the first bullet:
  • There is virtually no correlation between Total Harmonic Distortion (THD) or Intermodulation Distortion (IMD) measurements of a system and the subjective impression of the sound quality of that system. The correlations were weak, but most shockingly they were negative—according to these tests people liked THD distortion. This is actually somewhat true in general that people prefer some forms of distortion to no distortion.
Hm. I've been over that paper multiple times but didn't find that point revealing, and so forgot it. As far as I know, psychoacoustically nonlinear distortion mainly affects the sense of loudness and, from other studies, even slight loudness differences can be detected.

Say a preference for distortion can be generalized. The distortion studies I've seen have focused on detection rather than preference, so none come to mind to corroborate those findings. I could imagine circumstances in which distortion is high enough to be interesting and sounds good, but I don't think there would be any sort of consistency. Weak correlation, after all. Only in a production context, where it can be controlled, would that make sense.
What is the basis for the popularity of tube amplification among audiophiles? In particular, the basis for preference by some for SET (single ended triode) amps such as based on tubes like the 300B? These audiophiles put up with extremely low power output in order to enjoy the sound of very high levels of 2nd order distortion combined with relatively low levels of high level distortion.

This is entirely consistent with the findings of "controlled testing" by Geddes and Lee.
Tubes have multiple effects if overdriven. Compression, FR change on top of distortion. Not necessarily low order HD either. It's not enough to isolate and say nonlinear distortion is responsible.

If driven below clipping there's nothing to really talk about since the HD generated is fairly low level.
 

Pinox67

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Hm. I've been over that paper multiple times but didn't find that point revealing, and so forgot it. As far as I know, psychoacoustically nonlinear distortion mainly affects the sense of loudness and, from other studies, even slight loudness differences can be detected.

Say a preference for distortion can be generalized. The distortion studies I've seen have focused on detection rather than preference, so none come to mind to corroborate those findings. I could imagine circumstances in which distortion is high enough to be interesting and sounds good, but I don't think there would be any sort of consistency. Weak correlation, after all. Only in a production context, where it can be controlled, would that make sense.

I don't know if you have read these interesting AES papers:

- Auditory Perception of Nonlinear Distortion - Theory
- Auditory Perception of Nonlinear Distortion

Here you can found all the detail about Geddes and Lee work on THD/IMD metrics relationship with the perceived sound quality: as stated above, surprisingly this relationship is virtually nonexistent, if not negative; people prefer some forms of distortion to no distortion.
It is also proposed a new metric that brings the psychoacoustics into play, taking in care the masking effect.
 
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pozz

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I don't know if you have read these interesting AES papers:

- Auditory Perception of Nonlinear Distortion - Theory
- Auditory Perception of Nonlinear Distortion

Here you can found all the detail about Geddes and Lee work on THD/IMD metrics relationship with the perceived sound quality: as stated above, this relationship is virtually nonexistent.
It is also proposed a new metric that brings the psychoacoustics into play, taking in care the masking effect.
Yes, I've read those before.

The GedLee metric and others like it (DS, Rnonlin, our own PK metric by @pkane, the CEA2010 limits) are usually discussed as a way of quantifying audible effect (can you hear it or not), not to show preference (do you want to hear it or not). The latter is a different animal entirely.

In the studies I've read, detection thresholds are so variable and content specific that outside of an attempt to reduce them and make input similar to output there's been no real consensus. If we take all the testing done here by Amir and Erin (edit: for speakers), I'd guess there is a range of around 30dB between best and worst at any given frequency, trending towards being higher in the lower frequencies. Pretty narrow bounds, considering everything.

For while I looking at using Rnonlin based on the data we have here, but the loudness model it uses only works up to 80dB SPL. I don't have enough psychoacoustics in me to understand how to modify it for higher levels.
 
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kevinh

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So back in the 60's Bell Laboratories did studies on distortion, so they did not test equipment with distortion levels below that of human hearing. They found that 2nd and third harmonic distortion was to be preferred to higher order distortion especially higher order odd harmonic distortion. They found that the ear brain system had an easier time ignoring 2nd harmonic distortion which imparted a 'warm sound' to the music/voice, third harmonic was perceived as more detailed. Again this from the Mid 60 testing early transistor equipment and tube equipment.
 

Gorgonzola

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It is your assumption that this about sound quality and not just fulfilling their shiny go go gadget addiction. By the way, psychoacoustics tells you that H2 is almost always masked.
Let's be clear that SET lovers don't hear the H2 as "distortion".
 

q3cpma

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Let's be clear that SET lovers don't hear the H2 as "distortion".
Unless it is extremely high, they simply don't hear it. See this table, which is the most conservative (pure sine) audibility threshold:
index.php
 

Pinox67

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Yes, I've read those before.

The GedLee metric and others like it (DS, Rnonlin, our own PK metric by @pkane, the CEA2010 limits) are usually discussed as a way of quantifying audible effect (can you hear it or not), not to show preference (do you want to hear it or not). The latter is a different animal entirely.

In the studies I've read, detection thresholds are so variable and content specific that outside of an attempt to reduce them and make input similar to output there's been no real consensus. If we take all the testing done here by Amir and Erin, I'd guess there is a range of around 30dB between best and worst at any given frequency, trending towards being higher in the lower frequencies. Pretty narrow bounds, considering everything.

For while I looking at using Rnonlin based on the data we have here, but the loudness model it uses only works up to 80dB SPL. I don't have enough psychoacoustics in me to understand how to modify it for higher levels.

GedLee work is very interesting. Not audibility thresholds of distortions, made with test signals, but the perceived sound quality resulting from different forms of (simulated) distortion introduced by our audio devices into real music.
 
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Gorgonzola

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Unless it is extremely high, they simply don't hear it. See this table, which is the most conservative (pure sine) audibility threshold:
index.php
I think you're supporting my point, which is, that the 2nd order HD isn't heard as distortion by owners of equipment producing relatively high levels of this distortion. These folks tend to used such subjective terms as musical, organic, liquid, tonally rich.
 

Matias

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THW

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I think you're supporting my point, which is, that the 2nd order HD isn't heard as distortion by owners of equipment producing relatively high levels of this distortion. These folks tend to used such subjective terms as musical, organic, liquid, tonally rich.

unless I am dumb, I am quite sure his point is that the effects of H2 are inaudible and will not cause the effects you are claiming because H2 has been perceptually masked.

in other words there’s none of that “warmth” or whatever you’re claiming, perceptually you’re just hearing the signal.
 

Gorgonzola

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unless I am dumb, I am quite sure his point is that the effects of H2 are inaudible and will not cause the effects you are claiming because H2 has been perceptually masked.

in other words there’s none of that “warmth” or whatever you’re claiming, perceptually you’re just hearing the signal.
Yes, you are correct that that is what he is saying. However it is inconsistent with the experiences of hundreds of thousands of listeners.

The standard trope of half-baked scientists and some in other disciplines, such as medicine, do when they don't have a ready explanation is dismiss the individual's experience as their imagination, (i.e. confirmation bias or the like). As for tests and experiments, they might meet scientific criteria of validity and consistency but yet not be pertinent to the essential phenomenon. I feel this must be the case for much of the psycho-acoustic experiments to date.
 

THW

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However it is inconsistent with the experiences of hundreds of thousands of listeners.

what was that quote or line or saying that comes to mind… oh yeah I think it goes “just because lots of people agree does not make it any more correct, it can just mean they’re all wrong” or something like that.

your statement also assumes that they actually know what they are hearing, someone else may want to remind me on that paper or experiment (or something else, I cannot remember) but I am quite sure it has been shown most listeners are actually terrible at determining sonic differences. the results for that experiment pretty much shows that only the formally trained group of listeners could reliably pick out actual sonic differences between speakers. the rest, including audio reviewers and salesmen, may as well have been guessing.
 

charleski

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Every now and then this topic always comes back.

Some reading here:
https://www.stereophile.com/content/katzs-corner-episode-25-adventures-distortion
Nothing new here. Higher harmonics are more readily detectable than lower, and that's exactly what was shown in the table @q3cpma posted. When he says, 'If the designer pays attention solely to the THD value, he may not realize that sometimes the "good-sounding, lower harmonics" get suppressed at the expense of the "bad-sounding, higher harmonics" ' he's just waving his hands without looking at the numbers, and the same holds true for the Olson article he links. At 50Hz the 5th harmonic becomes detectable around -56dB, yet all the 5th harmonics in Olson's examples are at least 20dB below that (and the worst setup is the transformer-coupled design he goes on to praise). It would be nice to see some actual data to back up his claim that feedback raises the level of higher harmonics, but I suspect this only actually applies to poor feedback implementations that break down at higher frequencies (which can certainly happen using valves).

The 'listening tests' at the end are just the usual unconvincing hokum, I'm afraid.
 

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To my mind, audio reproduction needs to be transparent. It does not introduce (noticable) distortion and noise and behaves linearly. Any device that introduces distortion is unwanted.

But here's always the discussion; some people like extra distortion.

It's like watching movies on film with an old projector. Sure, the colors might not be accurate anymore due to chemical degradation and there are loads of scratches and dirt and the projector is noisy and the screen is dim because of the old bulb etc. But it's still enjoyable and gives you that old school movie theater experience. The movie is still great and some purists might argue it's the only way to enjoy it.

For me personally, I like accuracy in my system. I don't want distortion and extra noise. I want a system that comes close to what the artist used when creating the piece. I want to see Picasso in natural light, not in neon.
 

SIY

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Yes, you are correct that that is what he is saying. However it is inconsistent with the experiences of hundreds of thousands of listeners.

The standard trope of half-baked scientists and some in other disciplines, such as medicine, do when they don't have a ready explanation is dismiss the individual's experience as their imagination, (i.e. confirmation bias or the like). As for tests and experiments, they might meet scientific criteria of validity and consistency but yet not be pertinent to the essential phenomenon. I feel this must be the case for much of the psycho-acoustic experiments to date.
Hundreds of thousands? Citation needed.
 

Gorgonzola

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There’s not hundreds of thousands. There’s a couple dozen.
Sure. (You're a literalist by nature I see.) SET users are a small minority but tube users are not. 1/2 or more of AA members are tube users. While you're in a mood for checking things out, see 'Inmate Systems'.

SET use is constrained by the very low power of these amps. User must settle for ultra-high efficiency speakers which are rarely the best overall. Many tube users will use a tube preamp while all the other components are s/s; they do this in the conscious awareness that they are adding tube qualities, "warmth", etc., to their systems.
 

Pinox67

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Nothing new here. Higher harmonics are more readily detectable than lower, and that's exactly what was shown in the table @q3cpma posted. When he says, 'If the designer pays attention solely to the THD value, he may not realize that sometimes the "good-sounding, lower harmonics" get suppressed at the expense of the "bad-sounding, higher harmonics" ' he's just waving his hands without looking at the numbers, and the same holds true for the Olson article he links. At 50Hz the 5th harmonic becomes detectable around -56dB, yet all the 5th harmonics in Olson's examples are at least 20dB below that (and the worst setup is the transformer-coupled design he goes on to praise). It would be nice to see some actual data to back up his claim that feedback raises the level of higher harmonics, but I suspect this only actually applies to poor feedback implementations that break down at higher frequencies (which can certainly happen using valves).

The 'listening tests' at the end are just the usual unconvincing hokum, I'm afraid.

The underlying problem here, a source of disagreement, is what I have already highlighted in a previous post: both audio devices and our ears are non-linear (and non-permanent), i.e. they behave in "strange ways“. I will try to explain what I mean with "strange ways” comparing them with linear ones, simplifying as much as possible.

Let's say that we have a system that process one signal: one input, one output. If we introduce on it the input signal A, we will have on its output the signal A'; if we introduce the B signal, we will have a B' signal at the output. A,B and A',B' for an amplifier could be respectively two input signals becoming from a DAC and two output signals to the loudspeakers; for our ear, they are the signals becoming from the loudspeakers and the sensations at listening (a bit vague, but we'll see better later).

If the system is linear (and permanent), with the introduction on it of the sum S=A+B, we will have the sum S'=A'+B' at the output. This regardless of the instant we introduce the signal. Even increasing or decreasing the levels of signals A or B at the input, we will have a variation of the same amount for A' or B' at the output. Moreover, if we connect in sequence more linear systems, the resulting composite system will be still linear. As final consequence, if we play with specific elementary signals, i.e. pure tones, we can understand practically everything about a linear system and predicting its behaviour for any complex signal. The linear distortions of the input signal that can be produced are simple forms of time nature or of level, for different frequencies; new tones are never created.

If the system is non-linear (and non-permanent), the introduction of the sum S=A+B does not produce the sum A'+B' at all, but a signal S' that can be very different. It could happen for example that small variations in B cause large variations in S', even if B alone in the input causes small changes in B', or vice versa. Here, new pure tones are generated by the interaction of those presents in A and B. Furthermore, S' could depend on the past signals processed and finally, even an increase in the input level is not found in the same proportions at the output. Thus, for non-linear system the law modelling input/output relationship for any complex signal can be of high complexity, and it can't be decomposed by the combination of elementary signals to predict with certainty its behaviour.

Now, music is made up of very complex signals and both amplifiers and our ear are non-linear (I think nature has many good reasons for this). For amplifiers we can obtain with relative effort non-linear models, but usually they are modelled for simplicity as linear ones, quantifying the deviations from this model with specific parameters or graphs, like the classics THD, IMD and many others. In turn, linear distortions are generally less critical to manage, though audible in some situations. Intuitively, small distortions would seem desirable. For our ears this simplification can't be done: it is much more complex, involving acoustical, mechanical, hydrodynamic and neurological subsystems (in one word, the psychoacoustics) all acting in sequence and intrinsically non-linear. Moreover, the countless facets of "sound perception" are bit difficult to model with a high level of precision: after all, we are humans, not systems.

So, when the output of an amplifier (via loudspeakers or headphones, highly non-linear too) is proposed to our ears, "strange" and unexpected things can happen for our sound perception. For example, amplifiers with very small THD/IMD values could sound to our ears dull and artificial, while others with much higher THD/IMD values could be very pleasant and realistic. The reason should be clear based on what has just been described: our non-linear ear behaves in a complex way, hardly predictable. It is therefore equally clear what it is important in the evaluation of an amplifier (or any other audio device): not the absolute values of its THD/IMD, but they form. It is now established that certain types of distortion are much better than others and, as stated by GedLee work, even preferable respect to not have at all. Masking effect of our ear seems the main responsible, hiding the less pleasant distortions, however insignificant they results to classic measures. As far as I know, studies are still ongoing, looking for metrics that are able to approximate always better our sensations of listening.

In summary, the measurements of audio devices are valuable but by themselves, without the psychoacoustics aspects, are not sufficient. Due to the missing of appropriate and agreed metrics at the date, the final judge of the listening pleasure can be only our ear. I agree, the set up of listening tests, however controlled, is complex and full of insides. This requires competence, severity and the possibility to repeat tests for anyone. The results, involving people, will be always of statistical type. But there are not other ways to investigate on these aspects.
 
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SIY

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Sure. (You're a literalist by nature I see.) SET users are a small minority but tube users are not. 1/2 or more of AA members are tube users. While you're in a mood for checking things out, see 'Inmate Systems'.

SET use is constrained by the very low power of these amps. User must settle for ultra-high efficiency speakers which are rarely the best overall. Many tube users will use a tube preamp while all the other components are s/s; they do this in the conscious awareness that they are adding tube qualities, "warmth", etc., to their systems.
If by “literalist” you mean I don’t pull fake numbers out of my butt, guilty as charged. I assume your 50% number is likewise made up, and nice job conflating tube user with SET user.
 
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