Dirac in the 2021 Onkyo AVRs

[Koeitje]

I just wish they would throw out all the amplification so it can be more compact.

 

[tecnogadget]

Anyone else (with good externa amplification already) reacted to the extremely low level line outs on the models that have them, example from the RZ-50 information sheet (Integra 3.4/5.4 and Pioneer 505 are identical):
View attachment 138366
Maybe I'm missing something but 200mV RMS won't cut it with amps often having ~1.3V+ input sensitivity. Not to mention the bad SNR this gain structure invites.. What happened to the normal 2V line levels of my old gear..

Souce: https://virtualvoxx.com/premium#section_receivers

Ouch that’s bad news for me. I just wanted to take advantage of the cheap DSP hardware and lossless decoders, surround processing. I would even switch off the amps and use the reference one I have. Such anemic pre out voltage makes it unsuitable for my personal needs

 

[tecnogadget]

I just wish they would throw out all the amplification so it can be more compact.

I feel you bro. Most manufacturers are missing what we really need...no surprise they have to be bought off to keep afloat

 

[Koeitje]

I feel you bro. Most manufacturers are missing what we really need...no surprise they have to be bought off to keep afloat

Even if you accept the high pricing of separate processors there is barely any choice if you want something that is compact. I don't need all those analog video inputs for example. Its sad really.

 

[Flatlander]

Ouch that’s bad news for me. I just wanted to take advantage of the cheap DSP hardware and lossless decoders, surround processing. I would even switch off the amps and use the reference one I have. Such anemic pre out voltage makes it unsuitable for my personal needs

I don’t know why, but the specs of my Onkyo TX-NR717 (a 2012 model) also say 200 mV for the RCA pre-outs, and this is more than enough for both of my SVS SB2000 Pro – even at the lowest level of –15 dB in the AVR’s settings.

 

[Koeitje]

I don’t know why, but the specs of my Onkyo TX-NR717 (a 2012 model) also say 200 mV for the RCA pre-outs, and this is more than enough for both of my SVS SB2000 Pro – even at the lowest level of –15 dB in the AVR’s settings.

Your sub has its own volume/gain setting, not all power amplifiers do.

 

[Flak]

Anyone else (with good externa amplification already) reacted to the extremely low level line outs on the models that have them, example from the RZ-50 information sheet (Integra 3.4/5.4 and Pioneer 505 are identical):
View attachment 138366
Maybe I'm missing something but 200mV RMS won't cut it with amps often having ~1.3V+ input sensitivity. Not to mention the bad SNR this gain structure invites.. What happened to the normal 2V line levels of my old gear..

Souce: https://virtualvoxx.com/premium#section_receivers

Maybe this is relevant?
http://www.hi-fiworld.co.uk/amplifiers/75-amp-tests/150-sensitivity.html

 

[Flatlander]

Your sub has its own volume/gain setting, not all power amplifiers do.

And this setting is always at the default level of –10 dB.

 

[Sancus]

Getting two or more subs isn't a miniDSP pretty much a requirement? You also have to think about outside of these new AVR what is the entry point for Dirac Live. Maybe they will offer the DLBC upgrade in the future but for now I'm thinking no. I'm sure there are more compelling AVR with more features but these ones seem promising especially since they don't have the HDMI 2.1 bug

If you have an AVR with dirac+bass control and 2+ sub outs, then you don't need a miniDSP. Also, miniDSPs don't support bass control. If you only have 1 sub, you'd be better off putting $350 towards a second one than paying for the bass control upgrade in most cases.

I think these AVRs are fine products if you don't want bass control.

 

[abdo123]

Also, miniDSPs don't support bass control.

I'm pretty sure the point of MiniDSP is that the user is the bass control .

 

[Sancus]

I'm pretty sure the point of MiniDSP is that the user is the bass control .

That's a very strange argument to make when they do support Dirac. Of course you can potentially duplicate the results of any room correction with manual controls, if you spend enough days on it.

 

[Magnus0322]

If you have an AVR with dirac+bass control and 2+ sub outs, then you don't need a miniDSP. Also, miniDSPs don't support bass control. If you only have 1 sub, you'd be better off putting $350 towards a second one than paying for the bass control upgrade in most cases.

I think these AVRs are fine products if you don't want bass control.

What's the entry point for an AVR with 2 sub outs and DLBC? $3000? Then you still have to shell out $500 for the DLBC? I'm genuinely curious

 

[Sancus]

What's the entry point for an AVR with 2 sub outs and DLBC? $3000? Then you still have to shell out $500 for the DLBC? I'm genuinely curious

There is nothing below the $4K(Monoprice HTP-1)+$500 price point as far as I know. The Arcam AVR10 at $3K does not appear to support DLBC for more than 1 sub, which is pretty silly.

But that's the entire reason I'm interested in cheaper AVRs that might get the option!

MiniDSP at higher channel counts is still very expensive(2x DDRC-8A w/BM is $2300, plus your AVR), and also includes days spent tweaking w/ 50+ REW measurements required and a cabling mess due to sending each channel through the miniDSP from your AVR first.

A DLBC AVR at $2K total would be a game changer even if it only supports 11 channels.

E: edited arcam details

 

[abdo123]

There is nothing below the $4K(Monoprice HTP-1)+$500 price point as far as I know. That's the entire reason I'm interested in cheaper AVRs that might get the option!

MiniDSP at higher channel counts is still very expensive(2x DDRC-8A w/BM is $2300, plus your AVR), and also includes days spent tweaking w/ 50+ REW measurements required and a cabling mess due to sending each channel through the miniDSP from your AVR first.

A DLBC AVR at $2K total would be a game changer even if it only supports 11 channels.

or a regular AVR with one subwoofer output with the 150$ MiniDSP 2*4?

 

[Magnus0322]

There is nothing below the $4K(Monoprice HTP-1)+$500 price point as far as I know. That's the entire reason I'm interested in cheaper AVRs that might get the option!

MiniDSP at higher channel counts is still very expensive(2x DDRC-8A w/BM is $2300, plus your AVR), and also includes days spent tweaking w/ 50+ REW measurements required and a cabling mess due to sending each channel through the miniDSP from your AVR first.

A DLBC AVR at $2K total would be a game changer even if it only supports 11 channels.

I agree with that. $2k is about as much as I'm willing to spend for Dirac. But let's say that Onkyo offers the $350 bass control upgrade later on. If you have a miniDSP HD for $249 you'd be able to EQ both subs so the AVR only sees 1 single sub. Would Dirac not do its magic after? It's my understanding that's how most people EQ multiple subs and then run Audyssey XT32 after.

My goal is to upgrade to the RZ50 and get dual subs this year. Although I'm really lucky and my single PB12 actually measures incredibly well in my room at my listening position. Next year I plan on getting at least a 75 inch 4K HDMI 2.1 TV.

 

[Sancus]

But let's say that Onkyo offers the $350 bass control upgrade later on. If you have a miniDSP HD for $249 you'd be able to EQ both subs so the AVR only sees 1 single sub.

If you do this you're limited to your AVR's built-in crossover which makes the solution inherently inferior to DLBC or running all channels through the miniDSP, both of which let you optimize the crossover.

Even if you use this with DLBC, it can only see one signal in that case which means it isn't optimizing the subs independently. So you lose most of the whole point.

 

[Martin]

The receivers all have 2 sub outs. Why do you need a miniDSP HD?

Martin

 

[Magnus0322]

The receivers all have 2 sub outs. Why do you need a miniDSP HD?

Martin

Is it two independent sub outs?

 

[Magnus0322]

For anyone interested I saw on AVSForum that an authorized dealer has started taking pre orders for the RZ50.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1410289456494505990

I found the post on Twitter. I just sent an email asking for details. On the other forum some users claim $1095 no tax and free shipping. If that's the case I hope I can secure an order with them because this AVR will see incredible demand at that price

 

[markus]

It is, yes. But if you care about bass control bothering with a single sub seems inherently ridiculous to me.

You still get the crossover splice optimization which can substantially improve response at the main listening position. Here's an example: https://www.avsforum.com/threads/the-official-dirac-live-thread.3137722/post-60061334