Dirac in the 2021 Onkyo AVRs

[dlaloum]

Some interesting information - but stand alone of limited meaning!

An RZ50 owner recently posted the following list of chips found inside. - I would assume the TX-NR7100 would be pretty much identical in the processing area, as would the equivalent Pioneer's and Integra's

PCM5101A BB
PCM9211 BB
PCM1690 BB
RX651C Reneas
CS49844A-CQZ Cirrus Logic
D808K013DPTP5 TI
MN864797 Panasonic
MIMX8MM5DVTLZAA

 

[voodooless]

DAC wise this is nothing special, SINAD in the early to mid 90’s.

 

[dlaloum]

Main DAC would presumably be the PCM1690 - as that is an 8 channel DAC - the other two (PCM5101 & PCM9211 ) seem to be stereo ... Zone 2 & 3 ?

 

[Miker 1102]

Yep, if it doesn't get hot, then chance are it will have a long healthy life....

I have bought the pioneer vsx-lx305 version with Dirac and it does not run hot. I am not very articulate or qualified to review an amp but I am really struggling wirh upgrading my Sony790. I find that neither the Denon/Marantz or the Onkyo/Pioneer sound significantly better to me than the Sony product for the money. The Pioneer product had a good app for both the Dirac and Avr remote. The Dirac was picky about the bass trim levels as some others have mentioned. The problem is why does a 300 dollar amp sound as good as a 2k dollar one?. Dirac made the pioneer vsx-lx305 sound very good but the Sony acc settings and Dirac were almost the same in terms of decibel settings for the speakers. I also thought the pioneer vsx-lx305 Dolby upmixers were very weak on the back surround channels. I had them cranked upto plus 10 db it still fell short of the Sony's fuller cohesive sound. What's a guy to do?

 

[dlaloum]

You can experiment with the different Surround modes. Some are more "obvious" than others... And some prefer a softer surround effect to others!

In most cases, the surrounds should provide only "ambiance" - you can use some of the surround test tracks available to check that they do work distinctly & separately (at least for the surround modes where the channels are seperate!) - and that their levels are correct - with some of the tests, they are all at the same level - and you should be able to tell that.

If the same level is achieved all around - then it is a question of personal preference.... if you prefer the rear at +10db, then what is wrong with that?

 

[Keened]

I have bought the pioneer vsx-lx305 version with Dirac and it does not run hot. I am not very articulate or qualified to review an amp but I am really struggling wirh upgrading my Sony790. I find that neither the Denon/Marantz or the Onkyo/Pioneer sound significantly better to me than the Sony product for the money. The Pioneer product had a good app for both the Dirac and Avr remote. The Dirac was picky about the bass trim levels as some others have mentioned. The problem is why does a 300 dollar amp sound as good as a 2k dollar one?. Dirac made the pioneer vsx-lx305 sound very good but the Sony acc settings and Dirac were almost the same in terms of decibel settings for the speakers. I also thought the pioneer vsx-lx305 Dolby upmixers were very weak on the back surround channels. I had them cranked upto plus 10 db it still fell short of the Sony's fuller cohesive sound. What's a guy to do?

7.2.4 is the sweet spot for the foreseeable future in terms of contents (although object based audio simulation can make use of an arbitrary number of speakers in theory). So that's 11 powered channels, but finding 11 channel DACs and DSP processors can be tricky. If you could live with 5.2.2 and are willing to do the final bass tuning by hand (take in 5.1.2 and convert to 5.2.2) I see the following 'ideal' path forward:

eARC audio conversion to 8 channel LPCM via Audio Processor (https://www.thenaudio.com/product/sharc-v2-8k-earc-audio-processor/) -> LPCM over HDMI to PCI-E with Magewell capture card (I think it only works with the PCI-E capture cards based on their graphic, https://www.magewell.com/sdk so this would need a 'NUC' instead of a Pi4) -> ??????? script to redirect audio capture to USB bus and dump video -> MiniDSP U-DIO USB to AES-XLR -> MiniDSP-88D + Bass Management -> Okto8 DAC -> Whatever power amps you can afford after all of that.

Edit: I thought Oppo had gone out of business but apparently they just stopped making BluRay players?

This would be the answer to the ????? transformation stage: https://www.oppostore.nl/en/vanitypro.html which will let you convert from HDMI (while solving jitter and ground loops) to AES/EBU which you can then transform to USB via DIO. Then you can use a single box solution to switch between eARC/HDMI content and streamed content instead of sticking a 8x8 AES/EBU patch board to swap between sources to feed the Dirac and DAC.

I wish there was a Oppo X Okto X MiniDSP X Topping rack stack:

Top level box take HDMI and USB inputs and outputs unjittered LPCM over AES/EBU. This would mostly be just a VanityPro and U-DIO together in a single box with synchronized relays (2x per +/- pair, no need for the ground since they can all share the same) to swap between the two different sides. This would have a single button to manually swap between the two input, set to a slaved connection controlled by the 2nd/3rd box in the stack, or ignore input entirely. Use a toslink connection for commands to link to the next box. QoL upgrades would be maybe additional various 2 channel digital inputs and IIS/LVDS support. Also maybe an HDMI switch board and eARC box built in but it's easier to leave those as external add-ons; maybe a digital input expansion rack.

Middle box would be a combination DSP/DAC/ADC. It would accept 8 channel AES/EBU and 8 channel analog XLR. A few different settings for the DAC output/Filter settings. Another toslink for control.

Bottom box would be an 8 channel pre-amp with all traditional analog inputs and compact 6 pin loop backs to the middle box for feeding back into the DSP. Dual toslink for control of the rest of the stack. Volume control with OLED screen for controlling the I/O on the rest of the stack. Ideally this would be expandable like the Pre-90+Ext so you could stack multiple 8x8 XLR inputs to feed into the system. A pair of dedicated balanced TRS for headphone amp connections would also be nice.

Total estimated stack cost is ~$7-10K

I just want an eARC + ATMOS + AURO3D + Dirac w/ DLBC capable 3.2.2 system with an excellent DAC and balanced outs and a dedicated headphone out for ~$3K but no one wants to make it

 

[Miker 1102]

You can experiment with the different Surround modes. Some are more "obvious" than others... And some prefer a softer surround effect to others!

In most cases, the surrounds should provide only "ambiance" - you can use some of the surround test tracks available to check that they do work distinctly & separately (at least for the surround modes where the channels are seperate!) - and that their levels are correct - with some of the tests, they are all at the same level - and you should be able to tell that.

If the same level is achieved all around - then it is a question of personal preference.... if you prefer the rear at +10db, then what is wrong with that?

Thank you. I am going to play the Pioneer a bit more. It does give me the ability to do 5.2.4 and the Dirac is very nice feature. I have also been thinking about buying Dirac for the my pc. Honestly, I think it's the difference the brands apply to thier surround modes. The Pioneer modes were just very front based in presentation. I own a ton of 5.1 music and played a bunch of different tracks so they definitely worked. I guess it's just my own preferences. I just havevbeen surprised that much more expensive products dd not perform better than s Sony that is often maligned as inferior. I can tell you that the curve that Sony used was explicitly the same settings as Dirac on the Pioneer. The speakers were calibrated almost exactly in terms of decibel trims. The Dirac measures not in feet but in response times.

7.2.4 is the sweet spot for the foreseeable future in terms of contents (although object based audio simulation can make use of an arbitrary number of speakers in theory). So that's 11 powered channels, but finding 11 channel DACs and DSP processors can be tricky. If you could live with 5.2.2 and are willing to do the final bass tuning by hand (take in 5.1.2 and convert to 5.2.2) I see the following 'ideal' path forward:

eARC audio conversion to 8 channel LPCM via Audio Processor (https://www.thenaudio.com/product/sharc-v2-8k-earc-audio-processor/) -> LPCM over HDMI to PCI-E with Magewell capture card (I think it only works with the PCI-E capture cards based on their graphic, https://www.magewell.com/sdk so this would need a 'NUC' instead of a Pi4) -> ??????? script to redirect audio capture to USB bus and dump video -> MiniDSP U-DIO USB to AES-XLR -> MiniDSP-88D + Bass Management -> Okto8 DAC -> Whatever power amps you can afford after all of that.

Edit: I thought Oppo had gone out of business but apparently they just stopped making BluRay players?

This would be the answer to the ????? transformation stage: https://www.oppostore.nl/en/vanitypro.html which will let you convert from HDMI (while solving jitter and ground loops) to AES/EBU which you can then transform to USB via DIO. Then you can use a single box solution to switch between eARC/HDMI content and streamed content instead of sticking a 8x8 AES/EBU patch board to swap between sources to feed the Dirac and DAC.

I wish there was a Oppo X Okto X MiniDSP X Topping rack stack:

Top level box take HDMI and USB inputs and outputs unjittered LPCM over AES/EBU. This would mostly be just a VanityPro and U-DIO together in a single box with synchronized relays (2x per +/- pair, no need for the ground since they can all share the same) to swap between the two different sides. This would have a single button to manually swap between the two input, set to a slaved connection controlled by the 2nd/3rd box in the stack, or ignore input entirely. Use a toslink connection for commands to link to the next box. QoL upgrades would be maybe additional various 2 channel digital inputs and IIS/LVDS support. Also maybe an HDMI switch board and eARC box built in but it's easier to leave those as external add-ons; maybe a digital input expansion rack.

Middle box would be a combination DSP/DAC/ADC. It would accept 8 channel AES/EBU and 8 channel analog XLR. A few different settings for the DAC output/Filter settings. Another toslink for control.

Bottom box would be an 8 channel pre-amp with all traditional analog inputs and compact 6 pin loop backs to the middle box for feeding back into the DSP. Dual toslink for control of the rest of the stack. Volume control with OLED screen for controlling the I/O on the rest of the stack. Ideally this would be expandable like the Pre-90+Ext so you could stack multiple 8x8 XLR inputs to feed into the system. A pair of dedicated balanced TRS for headphone amp connections would also be nice.

Total estimated stack cost is ~$7-10K

I just want an eARC + ATMOS + AURO3D + Dirac w/ DLBC capable 3.2.2 system with an excellent DAC and balanced outs and a dedicated headphone out for ~$3K but no one wants to make it

I am going to play the Pioneer a bit more. It does give me the ability to do 5.2.4 and the Dirac is very nice feature.

You are right. The earc, atmos, and a good dac and bass control with Dirac is an awesome combination. I have went down a lot of rabbit holes wirh my ideas about how to get good audio/video. I love the Oppo idea. I was always looking for a way to play DSD and everything else with good audio output but not spending a ton of money. My poor Oppo 93 just sits here collecting dust. It's such an excellent device. I kick myself evey day for not upgrading to uhd. I just used an Xbox because it was so cheap.

 

[pomozel]

Any idea if or when Dynamic EQ and Dynamic Volume will complement Dirac Live on these receivers?

 

[dlaloum]

Any idea if or when Dynamic EQ and Dynamic Volume will complement Dirac Live on these receivers?

Yes it is present: it is now called "Late Night" mode (I am guessing as to it's full functions, but I assume that it does both compression and Fletcher-Muson style loudness adjustment... ie: DynamicEQ+Dynamic Volume) - and if using DD+ or DolbyTrueHD you have "Loudness Management".

From the Integra DRX 3.4 Manual p 74:

Late Night: Enable small sounds to be easily heard in detail. It is useful when you need to reduce the volume while watching a movie late night.
• This function cannot be used in the following cases.
––When playing Dolby Digital Plus or Dolby TrueHD with "Loudness Management" set to "Off"
––When the input signal is DTS:X, and "Dialog Control" is not 0 dB
––When the input signal is Analog/DSD and the listening mode is Direct

 

[EB1000]

Any idea if or when Dynamic EQ and Dynamic Volume will complement Dirac Live on these receivers?

No, at least not dynamic eq, as it's a home curve dependent, requiring the DSP to dynamically alter the filter curves based on SPL, which is NOT yet supported by Dirac Live, because filter recalc cannot be carried out in real time by the AVR's DSP - it needs the PC for offline processing and mem slot reloading). If dynamic eq is a must, go with Denon or Yamaha... (night mode is a very limited dynamic vol that cannot be used with some sound modes).

Dynamic eq can only be applied offline during filter calc. In Denon/Marantz its done once during auto calib by pre-calculating 8 different curves for different SPL ranges and loading them to 8 different mem slots. With Dirac, these slots are not available (you get 2 to 4 slots that you can change manually and apply your own manual dynamic eq... Dirac are planning to add dynamic eq feature in the future... (you could ask the Dirac rep in this forum for more info)

 

[stevenswall]

Dynamic eq can only be applied offline during filter calc. In Denon/Marantz its done once during auto calib by pre-calculating 8 different curves for different SPL ranges and loading them to 8 different mem slots. With Dirac, these slots are not available (you get 2 to 4 slots that you can change manually and apply your own manual dynamic eq... Dirac are planning to add dynamic eq feature in the future... (you could ask the Dirac rep in this forum for more info)

So at this point if one values the "accuracy" of an equal loudness contour for low and high volume levels vs the increased room correction, Audessey would be best? (I use GLM and on one hand I want Dirac Live Bass Control for multiple subwoofers, but on the other hand I think I'd notice the dynamic loudness feature more.)

 

[Keened]

So at this point if one values the "accuracy" of an equal loudness contour for low and high volume levels vs the increased room correction, Audessey would be best? (I use GLM and on one hand I want Dirac Live Bass Control for multiple subwoofers, but on the other hand I think I'd notice the dynamic loudness feature more.)

Eh...not necessarily. If you have a preferred night time volume that doesn't get changed much then you can sacrifice a Dirac slot to a curve made with equal loudness in mind. Personally I'm not sure how you would create this curve in REW, but AFAIK it's possible.

But DLBC isn't on any AVR under $3K at the moment. I think the older NAD's might be the cheapest way to go for that but they have their own issues. There *might* be DLBC on the higher range AVRs out of Onkyo/Pioneer, but nothing is confirmed. The RZ50 just has a built in Y-splitter for the sub-outs so it would need an additional box in between even if they offered licensing so it's less likely to be an option going forward.

DLBC is nice to have, but again, AFAIK/from what I've read it's nothing that can't be done with REW and a miniDSP Flex and time. Costs about the same as well for 2 subs and is cheaper for 4.

 

[dlaloum]

Eh...not necessarily. If you have a preferred night time volume that doesn't get changed much then you can sacrifice a Dirac slot to a curve made with equal loudness in mind. Personally I'm not sure how you would create this curve in REW, but AFAIK it's possible.

But DLBC isn't on any AVR under $3K at the moment. I think the older NAD's might be the cheapest way to go for that but they have their own issues. There *might* be DLBC on the higher range AVRs out of Onkyo/Pioneer, but nothing is confirmed. The RZ50 just has a built in Y-splitter for the sub-outs so it would need an additional box in between even if they offered licensing so it's less likely to be an option going forward.

DLBC is nice to have, but again, AFAIK/from what I've read it's nothing that can't be done with REW and a miniDSP Flex and time. Costs about the same as well for 2 subs and is cheaper for 4.

Onkyo fans are hoping DLBC will find its way onto this years new RZ70/RZ90 models.... but who knows!