What do expensive speakers sound like?

[NicC]

if you tally up shipping, taxes, reasonable marketing expenses, overhead (offices, warehouses, etc), the retailer's share, the distributor's share, etc. then you start to wonder how they can stay in business at 30%.

Yes, I see now, this is why internet-direct, speaker engineers like Dave Fabrikant (I bought his ELX towers after recommendations by ASR members) can provide great value for money.

There have been so many times hearing a system at a show where some interesting character characteristics stuck out where I thought “ I really like that” and it led me to some interesting journeys.

Being a buy-it, set-it, and forget-it type of personality, I find it interesting that people regularly (?) swap out gear for different audio experiences. I'd never considered it, but then, I've not been to the shows to discover different sounds. I am interested in tubes (for the looks mainly ), and wonder what they might do for the ELX speakers over the Marantz AVR, but that would be a different thread.

Something else, Kemmler you mentioned, strikes an 'aha' moment with me. When bigger rooms require bigger speakers, you're buying a piece of electro-furniture, and yes, good-looking furniture is going to cost.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Thank you for this. The penny is dropping. It was driving me crazy (well, not really) that speakers can cost half a million dollars, because when stripped down to parts it wasn't making sense. I think I read somewhere the raw materials of an iPhone are something like $2 in total

It's pretty important not to believe everything you read on the internet.

iPhone 16 series teardown shows increased costs in certain components

The latest teardown report of Apple's iPhone 16 series reveals that due to rising costs of certain components, the production cost of the iPhone 16 series has increased compared to the iPhone 15 series, though the average increase is less than US$30.

www.digitimes.com

EDIT: And that includes things you read on this forum.

 

[Bjorn]

What is high end? Some features that I believe is mandatory for this:

- Active design with time alignment between drivers
- A vertical directivity that minimizes reflections
- Avoidance of floor bounce (a lot more detrimental than what most believe)
- A cabinet that greatly minimizes diffraction
- Crossover far outside the sensitive area (also often overlooked by most)
- Driver placement that doesn't cause lobing, especially in higher frequencies
- Cabinet without audible résonances
- High capacity and extends low
- A uniform horizontal directivity in the most sensitive area (higher treble is far less important than midrange)
- Low intermodulation distortion

In other words, there are hardly any high end speakers in the market

 

[Pearljam5000]

Unfortunately more expensive speakers usually do sound better
I heard "cheap" studio monitors and more high end stuff
And it was night and day difference

 

[Blockader]

Unfortunately more expensive speakers usually do sound better
I heard "cheap" studio monitors and more high end stuff
And it was night and day difference

Because they’re studio monitors and not Veblen goods. There are only a few speakers above the $30,000 price point that truly sound good. Many of them share a certain 'showroom friendly' sound signature: a bright top end, wide soundstage and recessed, lightweight bass. That lack of bass weight makes the mids sound cleaner and the bass seem tighter but it’s often an illusion. Unless you directly compare that sound to a better speaker, it’s hard to tell whether what you're hearing is the artist’s true intention or just how the speakers color the sound.

Going back to the price discussion, up to around $30,000, it’s fair to say there’s strong competition among speaker brands and in general you do get better performance as you pay more. GGNTKT M3, KEF Blade 1, Genelec W371 + 83X1's, a flush mounted Genelec 1234, Aalto 9 these are all great sounding speakers. Once you get above the $30,000 price point speakers often start to behave more like Veblen goods, products valued more for their exclusivity and luxury status than their actual performance. At that level design choices can shift from optimizing sound quality to prioritizing aesthetics, exotic materials, or brand prestige.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Very true, but would you say the percentage of revenue allocated to marketing (advertising, events) is more than (say) 20-40%? I ask because directionally, this is certainly true for mainstream or even cheap gear, but I don't have direct experience marketing anything outside of consumer / mainstream audio gear.

I was told by a senior person in one of the major car companies that typically they spend more money on marketing per car than they do on making it and the BOM cost is about 10% of the retail price.

 

[Keith_W]

I was told by a senior person in one of the major car companies that typically they spend more money on marketing per car than they do on making it and the BOM cost is about 10% of the retail price.

Does the marketing include participating in F1?

 

[Pearljam5000]

I was told by a senior person in one of the major car companies that typically they spend more money on marketing per car than they do on making it and the BOM cost is about 10% of the retail price.

They would sell a lot more cars with 0 advertising if the car would cost 80% less for consumers after they saved the money on marketing

 

[Mort]

the BOM cost is about 10% of the retail price.

You'll need more than a quote from a buddy to defend this. It's almost certainly wrong.

 

[Bjorn]

So many are driven by emotions when buying both speakers and other things. Aethestics is also a major contributor to many, where they can end up buying crappy speakers because the love how they look and will try to convince themselves they are good designs as well. As one follow the idea that form should follow function it's a challenge.

 

[Audionaut]

MBL Radialstrahler Xtreme full system

We don't always agree, but our love for MBL loudspeakers is the same.
I heard the Xtreme in Berlin. It was a lot of fun.

To the basic question: I build and design my own speakers with (mostly) very good PA drivers. With DSP and active equalization, I get into the absolute high-end range with an investment of around 5,000 dollars / euros.
I can't reproduce MBL, but I can reproduce almost everything else.

If you want a completely flawless cabinet with a fine wood veneer, it will be a bit more expensive.

That reads like a commercial offer, but it's not. But I've built a lot of speakers and seen them come and go.

Speakers are only dependent on price up to a certain limit.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Does the marketing include participating in F1?

That didn't, it is TV and printed advertising.

 

[Frank Dernie]

They would sell a lot more cars with 0 advertising if the car would cost 80% less for consumers after they saved the money on marketing

It would be about 10% less, but nobody would have heard about it.

 

[Frank Dernie]

You'll need more than a quote from a buddy to defend this. It's almost certainly wrong.

BOM being around 10% of retail is pretty common knowledge in mass manufacturing plus or minus a few percentage points.
Back when I worked for Garrard in the 1970s it was the same. The biggest "cost" on the retail price was dealer margin, which was 50% to allow them to give the expected discount to customers. So more like jewellery and watches than cars.

They also sold via a distributor back then who also took a bigger margin than the manufacturer themselves. Cars give the dealer a lot less than hifi companies did back then.

In a car the biggest proportion of their costs are R&D and tooling, both of which contribute enormously to the low BOM cost.
It probably is in most manufacturing but the majority of the population have no idea.

 

[Frank Dernie]

You'll need more than a quote from a buddy to defend this. It's almost certainly wrong.

Really have you worked in the automotive sector long?

 

[darth]

It would be about 10% less, but nobody would have heard about it.

Ignoring the recent downfall due to the shenanigans of its leader, Tesla did pretty well with a relatively higher price tag + 0 advertising. Unless you count the potentially overpromising ketamine fueled tweets as advertising. Their BOM is/was a lot higher too, batteries aren't cheap. Using chatgpt:

 

[Frank Dernie]

Ignoring the recent downfall due to the shenanigans of its leader, Tesla did pretty well with a relatively higher price tag + 0 advertising. Unless you count the potentially overpromising ketamine fueled tweets as advertising. Their BOM is/was a lot higher too, batteries aren't cheap. Using chatgpt:

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My data was from over 20 years ago and EVs and applying production efficiencies to them did not exist yet.
Has Tesla ever turned a profit?
Share values are simply its value as a gambling token in the current stock market rather than linked to either the true value or profitability of it as a business.
Data I have is commercially confidential so neither the car company nor numbers will come from me

I presume the "BOM" cost estimated by an AI programme must include tooling and R&D to be such a big proportion so is not what I would call a bill of materials.

 

[darth]

Has Tesla ever turned a profit?

Yeah since 2020 iirc

 

[Frank Dernie]

Tesla did pretty well with a relatively higher price tag + 0 advertising.

I would call the huge presentation bun fights Musk had pretty often as big time marketing, personally, even if they didn't place ads in newspapers.

 

[DSJR]

Price no longer bears any real bearing on the sound apart from good large speakers having a more realistic presentation over small stand-mounted 'squeakers - and even that's changing now if volume levels are kept moderate (small drive units distort like crazy if asked to do low bass at any reasonable volume - physics I'd suggest over design). The more expensive a pair of boxes are, the more room all-too-often for mistakes to be made with audible consequences. Mind you, one brand I'm eternally fond of, makes lavish glossy veneered confections of their ugliest domestic 'Tower' models which apparently sell well in the far east to people where price tags and status-enhancement reportedly mean all to their audio gear hobby (music, what's that then?).