Ha ha, I read what you write… being Dutch I consider myself somewhere in the middle. Still, my point is that it doesn’t make sense waiting for the box that can do it all and still will be affordable. Anyone can buy the top of the bill Denon AVC-A1h. If you’re able to pay for it.
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Denon Replaces AKM AK4458 DAC IC in X4700H and X6700H
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symphara
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You might be dissatisfied. Better listen to it first.
CyrusTheGreat_600BC
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True, but most of us have a receiver or two or three already. If someone doesn’t have one, of course waiting is missing out, but for those who can wait, this is not a good year to upgrade.Denon X3300w (and others) quality ADC and DAC:
Hi, I took a look at which ADC and DAC chips my x3300w is equipped with. They should be pcm1690 for the DAC and pcm9211 for the ADC.
PCM1690:
24-Bit Delta-Sigma
8-Channel DAC
High Performance: Differential, fS = 48 kHz
THD+N: –94 dB
SNR: 113 dB
Dynamic Range: 113 dB
Sampling Rate: 8 kHz to 192 kHz
.........after all it's not that bad, there's certainly better.
The problem is instead the ADC, which, in my opinion, is painful! It seems really poor to me. It's a chip that does other things too!
PCM9211:
The PCM9211 is a complete analog and digital frontend for today's multimedia players, sound bars, and recorders. The PCM9211 integrates a stereo ADC, S/PDIF transceiver with up to 12 multiplexed inputs, and 3x PCM inputs to allow other audio receivers to be multiplexed, along with the analog and S/PDIF signals to a digital signal processor (DSP)
24-bit, 96-kHz capable
Dynamic range: 101 dB (fS = 96 kHz)
...I'm not very expert but I understand that the ADC is really poor and I also think that the analog signals that enter the Denon (turntable, etc.) are much penalized compared to the digital ones, so they have to pass through that shit of ADC.
What do you think?
I therefore thought of digitizing my analogue sources through an extremely high quality converter, a studio AD/DA converter, Apogee Rosetta 200 with these specifications relating to ADC:
https://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/pcm9211.pdf...
Of course I always use Audyssey.
In your opinion, when I listen to analogue sources, I will have a noticeable improvement, right? Or am I thinking wrong?
Thanks for any opinion.
Hi, I took a look at which ADC and DAC chips my x3300w is equipped with. They should be pcm1690 for the DAC and pcm9211 for the ADC.
PCM1690:
24-Bit Delta-Sigma
8-Channel DAC
High Performance: Differential, fS = 48 kHz
THD+N: –94 dB
SNR: 113 dB
Dynamic Range: 113 dB
Sampling Rate: 8 kHz to 192 kHz
.........after all it's not that bad, there's certainly better.
The problem is instead the ADC, which, in my opinion, is painful! It seems really poor to me. It's a chip that does other things too!
PCM9211:
The PCM9211 is a complete analog and digital frontend for today's multimedia players, sound bars, and recorders. The PCM9211 integrates a stereo ADC, S/PDIF transceiver with up to 12 multiplexed inputs, and 3x PCM inputs to allow other audio receivers to be multiplexed, along with the analog and S/PDIF signals to a digital signal processor (DSP)
24-bit, 96-kHz capable
Dynamic range: 101 dB (fS = 96 kHz)
...I'm not very expert but I understand that the ADC is really poor and I also think that the analog signals that enter the Denon (turntable, etc.) are much penalized compared to the digital ones, so they have to pass through that shit of ADC.
What do you think?
I therefore thought of digitizing my analogue sources through an extremely high quality converter, a studio AD/DA converter, Apogee Rosetta 200 with these specifications relating to ADC:
- 2 channels of very high quality 24-bit AD/DA conversion;
- "Intelliclock" dual-stage jitter reduction technology
- "Soft Limit" to operate with the maximum digital input level without distortion
- Available sample rates: 44.1/48/88.2/96k/176.4/192k (+/-10%)
- Frequency response at 44.1k: 10 - 20,000 Hz (+/- 0.2 dB)
- Range dinamico: 114 dB pesato A (AD + DA)
- THD+N: -105 dB (AD), -103 dB (DA)
https://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/pcm9211.pdf...
Of course I always use Audyssey.
In your opinion, when I listen to analogue sources, I will have a noticeable improvement, right? Or am I thinking wrong?
Thanks for any opinion.
Denon X3300w (and others) quality ADC and DAC:
Hi, I took a look at which ADC and DAC chips my x3300w is equipped with. They should be pcm1690 for the DAC and pcm9211 for the ADC.
PCM1690:
24-Bit Delta-Sigma
8-Channel DAC
High Performance: Differential, fS = 48 kHz
THD+N: –94 dB
SNR: 113 dB
Dynamic Range: 113 dB
Sampling Rate: 8 kHz to 192 kHz
.........after all it's not that bad, there's certainly better.
The problem is instead the ADC, which, in my opinion, is painful! It seems really poor to me. It's a chip that does other things too!
PCM9211:
The PCM9211 is a complete analog and digital frontend for today's multimedia players, sound bars, and recorders. The PCM9211 integrates a stereo ADC, S/PDIF transceiver with up to 12 multiplexed inputs, and 3x PCM inputs to allow other audio receivers to be multiplexed, along with the analog and S/PDIF signals to a digital signal processor (DSP)
24-bit, 96-kHz capable
Dynamic range: 101 dB (fS = 96 kHz)
...I'm not very expert but I understand that the ADC is really poor and I also think that the analog signals that enter the Denon (turntable, etc.) are much penalized compared to the digital ones, so they have to pass through that shit of ADC.
What do you think?
I therefore thought of digitizing my analogue sources through an extremely high quality converter, a studio AD/DA converter, Apogee Rosetta 200 with these specifications relating to ADC:
Sample rates available up to 192k.
- 2 channels of very high quality 24-bit AD/DA conversion;
- "Intelliclock" dual-stage jitter reduction technology
- "Soft Limit" to operate with the maximum digital input level without distortion
- Available sample rates: 44.1/48/88.2/96k/176.4/192k (+/-10%)
- Frequency response at 44.1k: 10 - 20,000 Hz (+/- 0.2 dB)
- Range dinamico: 114 dB pesato A (AD + DA)
- THD+N: -105 dB (AD), -103 dB (DA)
https://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/pcm9211.pdf...
Of course I always use Audyssey.
In your opinion, when I listen to analogue sources, I will have a noticeable improvement, right? Or am I thinking wrong?
Thanks for any opinion.
To bypass the Denon's ADC, you have use direct or pure direct mode. In that case you won't be able to use Audyssey.
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If you use digital input, it will not go through the ADC. I thought you plan on using analog inputs. Sorry about the misunderstanding.
Thanks, now that you confirm I'm happier.
I bought an Apogee Rosetta 200 AD-DA converter.
I use the AD section to convert my analog sources and feed them to the denon via digital.
In your opinion the Denon ADC chip is painful, right?
I wrote its specifications in my initial post.
I think I should have a noticeable leap in quality now for my analog sources listened to through the Rosetta 200 + denon/audyssey ADC. Or am I wrong in my assessments?
thanks again
I bought an Apogee Rosetta 200 AD-DA converter.
I use the AD section to convert my analog sources and feed them to the denon via digital.
In your opinion the Denon ADC chip is painful, right?
I wrote its specifications in my initial post.
I think I should have a noticeable leap in quality now for my analog sources listened to through the Rosetta 200 + denon/audyssey ADC. Or am I wrong in my assessments?
thanks again
Based on specs, I agree that ADC is not a good one but it is not horrible.
The PCM1690's specs is also not very good. The Rosetta has much better specs but it won't help much if the signal has to go through the PCM1690 anyway.
If you really want the best possible sound quality for stereo, it may better to use the analog output of an external dac and the Denon's analog input, direct mode to bypass the adc, dsp and dac. Then use a desktop or laptop with Dirac Live PC standalone version like I do. Or get a minidsp device:
miniDSP Webshop | DSP solutions
Online shopping for innovative DSP products has never been easier @ miniDSP.
Keep in mind better specs is great but the specs improvement may not result in audible improvements.
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Curious, what would you expect the audible differences to be using the different models?
Not OP but many people will be happier knowing that the have no bottleneck in their chain regardless of audibility. Like a peace of mind
Wouldn't call it a bottleneck myself, just slightly different spec and not likely audible. Piece of something else perhaps
well if one component of your chain has (slightly) slower SINAD than the rest, that's by definition the bottleneck. Not saying it affects the sound nor it is audible, just wanted to explain why some people want to have components with better SINAD.Wouldn't call it a bottleneck myself, just slightly different spec and not likely audible. Piece of something else perhaps
peace
But your approach insinuates the differences are audible.
In the presented cases, I highly doubt the diff. would be the audible.
as I said no, I believe there is no audible difference. I just wanted to explain why some people want to have a "perfect chain", like a peace of mind.
I'm using an updated x4700h and I would be happier if it is still using AKM DAC, even though I hear no difference compared to my x3400h
Fully understood, I believe I've said the same in reference to my late production X4700H.
Grazie per la risposta. L'ak4458 sarebbe un collo di bottiglia verso il convertitore AD rosetta?Sulla base delle specifiche, sono d'accordo che ADC non è buono, ma non è orribile.
Anche le specifiche del PCM1690 non sono molto buone. La Rosetta ha specifiche molto migliori, ma non aiuterà molto se il segnale deve comunque passare attraverso la PCM1690.
Se si desidera davvero la migliore qualità audio possibile per lo stereo, potrebbe essere meglio utilizzare l'uscita analogica di un dac esterno e l'ingresso analogico del Denon, la modalità diretta per bypassare l'adc, il dsp e il dac. Quindi usa un desktop o un laptop con la versione standalone di Dirac Live PC come faccio io. Oppure prendi un dispositivo minidsp:
miniDSP Webshop | DSP solutions
Online shopping for innovative DSP products has never been easier @ miniDSP.www.minidsp.com
Tieni presente che le specifiche migliori sono fantastiche, ma il miglioramento delle specifiche potrebbe non comportare miglioramenti udibili.
Dirac Live PC standalone e software che ha un costo? Quanto?
potrei cercare anche una Marantz? Quale Marantz, più economico, ha il chip AKM?
Grazie ancora
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If you compare the specs, THD+N, SNR etc., you will see that the AK4458 and the Rosetta are very comparable.
AK4458:
(1) DR, S/N: 115dB
(2) THD+N: -107dB
(3) 256x Over sampling (OSR - Doubler)
(4) Sampling Rate: 8kHz 768kHz
(5) 32Bit 8x Digital Filter
It is 2 dB better than the Rosetta in THD+N, only 1 dB better in S/N.
With Marantz, you will pay more and get higher distortions, based on measurements by Amir on this site.
The best one is the AVR-X3600H but you will never find one, nobody seems to want to sell one. It is possible to find used AVR-X3500H.
You may be able to find a AVR-X4400H or X4500H but people will likely want over $1,000 for one if it is in great condition.
Here is an example of a "B" stock X4500H, CAD 1,398
For Marantz, it will be something like a SR6012, or 6013, 6014. The 6015 will likely have the PCM5102A DAC that is not good. If you are in Asia or Europe Marantz price are the same or not much more than Denon's, but again, that don't measure well on the test bench probably because of the stupid HDAMs.
There are many options, which one is best depends on what your goal really is.
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What about a 6500? Does it have the same DAC as the 4400 and 4500? It seems that used 6500's are not that hard to find.
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