Denon DCD-SA1 Review (CD/SACD Player)

[NTTY]

Thanks @pkane
I had a look at the chart settings and missed this one.
Now, this is the view as I prefer for wide band, linear frequency scale.
I will add the 10kHz test tone only, as I think it will be sufficient.

From the Denon DCD-SA1:

Same from the Pioneer PD-30:

Cheers

--------
Flo

 

[Deleted member 77012]

Just tried to set up some overview listing regarding those heavy Denon CD players. Given specs are year and weight only, since they are easy to find

 

[GXAlan]

Just tried to set up some overview listing regarding those heavy Denon CD players. Given specs are year and weight only, since they are easy to find

The new Marantz SACD 10 is 33 kg!

 

[Deleted member 77012]

The new Marantz SACD 10 is 33 kg

and totally ugly

 

[NTTY]

I have the DCD-S10 and an older DCD-3560 (17kg), both being a delight to use. I’ll review them when I find time. I started measurements of the DCD-3560

 

[Scytales]

Thanks for the info, it looks indeed unobtainable, too bad. Searching for the disc, I found that Archimago talked about it and was able to get some tracks from DSD original files apparently (via Black Elk).

Well, what's left is to dream about a crowdfunded project of editing an hybrid AudioScienceReview SA-CD test-disc collaborately created with the help of Multitone software to create the DSD test signals of interest and the same soft, or other means, to create equivalent PCM test signals for the CD layer, and let a third party sub-contractor such as Bolo Digital Studios in the US or Polyhymnia in Europe edit and author the disc-image to be replicated and produced in a pressing plant.

 

[NTTY]

I'm not sure I would support this conclusion. The out-of-band noise for SACD mode looks very much like what you'd expect from DSD64, and it doesn't look like the DACs sport any post-filters to take care of it. Why CD-DSD conversion would seemingly engage one where plain SACD wouldn't is anyone's guess. Maybe they didn't want to spoil the "HD"? It obviously wouldn't matter for CD material which is inherently llimited to 22.05 kHz.

Sorry, I never replied. That was my guess because look at the trace of conversion from DSD to PCM (last copy screen of the review). You still see the ramp up of noise beyond 20kHz, which would not happen with PCM. And then it goes slowly down and that is obviously an effect of the AL24 filtering (which is a slow filter). That means the AL24 is filtering noise from the recording, as the DSD digital stream has not been processed other than to be converted to PCM.

Speaking of noise, you may want to add some tones with heavily shaped dither to the arsenal, for CD-only players. This would give you a better estimate of true analog performance.

For CD players, it can only be done in audio band. So we can indeed increase the resolution locally, like in the mids, but at the expense of noise starting at 10kHz. It would not improve the THD as we already see it with TPFD dither. Narrowing the window for measurement (maybe from 1kHz to 8kHz) would reveal true max THD+N. Somehow it would make sense since this the area of best sensitivity for our ears. Also some studio apply noise shaping by default when decreasing bit depth to 16bits. So it could be interesting. I don’t have a tool to generate test tones with noise shaping, so that’s not possible for me at the moment.

You can "dither away" the nonlinearities of crummy (multibit) DACs? I mean, it does make sense if you think about it, that's precisely what dither is for after all. It might be fun to see how far one can take it with heavily shaped dither.

Yes dither added to the recording improves old DAC architectures, especially R2R, good for them. Many of them can correctly represent a -110dB sine (I mean at the correct level). With TPFD dither, I can hear a -100dB tone. But below that, it’s buried into the dithered noise.

 

[Scytales]

I think the shape of the HF noise in this graph below just indicates that DSD is decimated in PCM at (at most) 96 kHz sample rate, which means that the DSD stream is low pass filtered in the digital domain to eliminate frequencies (hence noise) above something about 40 kHz to avoid aliasing.

The first graph visible with a 10 kHz test tone at the top of this page shows that the output of the Denon in "pure" DSD mode (without decimation to PCM) is low pass filtered as well. It just happens that the corner frequency of this filter (or, more precisely, the conjunction of the DSD1792 on-chip digital filter in DSD mode and the necessary analogue output filter) is well above the 40 kHz.

 

[NTTY]

Same understanding here, and that is why only remains that bump in this view.

 

[funkera91]

Guy, Denon DCD S10 or Denon DCD 900NE if the price doesnt matter sooo musch?

 

[AnalogSteph]

For CD players, it can only be done in audio band. So we can indeed increase the resolution locally, like in the mids, but at the expense of noise starting at 10kHz.

True, but at least it gives you a decent idea of where the actual analog noise floor is.

I don’t have a tool to generate test tones with noise shaping, so that’s not possible for me at the moment.

Good shaped dither can be found in unexpected places - try Audacity. I have also played with the "mda Dither" DSP plugin for Foobar2000, as well as Foobar's built-in dither (which is one of the best subjectively but may not be ideal for test signal purposes).

 

[Deleted member 77012]

Good shaped dither can be found in unexpected places - try Audacity. I have also played with the "mda Dither" DSP plugin for Foobar2000, as well as Foobar's built-in dither (which is one of the best subjectively but may not be ideal for test signal purposes).

As some examples of software are mentioned here: Can any sort of essential CD player testing/measuring be done by someone like me, who owns no specific hardware or testing CDs, but apps like Audacity, foobar 2000, Adobe Audition or even good old CoolEdit?

I’d love to do some measuring with my 15 or so years old Denon DCD-700AE, which is from times when even those entry class models were still made in Japan.

 

[NTTY]

I guess you meant the DCD-720AE. I have it too, this is an overlay of it vs the DCD-SA1 (1kHz @-1dBFS):

There is 4dB more noise, I don't know why. Distortion is a little higher too with 0.0028% (or-91dBr) vs 0.0012% (or -98.4dBr) in that view.

Despite having the AL32 filter, I did not find the selective behavior in this one, maybe that´s only a feature of the "Advanced" Denon filters.

I shall review the 720AE one day as I still have it.

To come back to your question, you'd need a decent enough interface which has lower distorsion and noise than the CD Players you want to test.
I'd suggest the Focusrite 2i2 Gen 4 as a very decent solution and still reasonable cost. The line input has a THD+N of -100dB at +8dB gain (60kΩ input impedance), which is enough. I guess the THD alone is much lower and noise would be largely removed by the FFT gain, so you'd get nice and explicit enough FFT views.

On Software perspective, REW and Multitone from @pkane are your friends. You can create and burn the test files yourself (from REW and Multitone) or I could send you mine.

Cheers

--------
Flo

 

[pkane]

You can create and burn the test files yourself (from REW) or I could send you mine.

And also from Multitone. Select desired test signal, then go to menu File->Save Test Signal... You can then chose number of channels, sample size and sample rate, and the desired length of the test signal.

 

[NTTY]

And also from Multitone. Select desired test signal, then go to menu File->Save Test Signal... You can then chose number of channels, sample size and sample rate, and the desired length of the test signal.

Thank you for the information, I updated my message accordingly.
--------
Flo

 

[Deleted member 77012]

I guess you meant the DCD-720AE

No, it is the DCD-700AE indeed. I’d guess you won’t find any 720 version made in Japan.

 

[NTTY]

No, it is the DCD-700AE indeed. I’d guess you won’t find any 720 version made in Japan.

My bad

 

[martijn86]

Well, that is because the Denon (its AL24 filter) recognizes the typical test tones and switches to a sharp filter in that case, which would make people like me (theoretically) happy. Fail

Wait, Denon is/was owned by the Volkswagen group back then?

 

[19lexicon78]

you're from switzerland, can you please measure the studer cd-players. i have a studer d730, use aes to gustard dac.
perhaps also rest of the studer series,emt 981, philips lhh 2000= love the cdm-0
for 20-25 years these where my cd-players. can i still use these or have to buy a new transport.?

 

[NTTY]

The Studer d730 is very expensive and uses the DAC7 of Philips. Have a look at the Teac VRDS-20 as I think it would be very close.
Now, if I come close to one, I’d measure it for sure!
Enjoy your Studer!