Denon X3800 how to stream the music loss less to external DAC?

[Arc78]

I am planning to make it possible to us TV and bypass the AVR dac and preamp and switch to external dac to special preamp when listening to 2 channel music.

My plan is to upgrade to Denon X3800H in teh near future but what will be the best way to connect the external dac? The best way to extract the audio loss less to separate audio preamp/external dac for 2 channel music?
I plan to use my TV with Tidal app and stream Hdmi ARC to the receiver and then with an extractor like NÖRDIC HDMI 2.1 Extractor 8K 60Hz 4K to the S.M.S.L dac connected to zon2 and then to preamp... anyone know if 3800 be able to stream hdmi zone2 output continuously without a lot of meny changes? Will this config work?
My TV stops Toslink playback when streaming Dolby over HDMI ARC....
I think that a solution like S.M.S.L which measure far better than any AVR DAC in combination with a dedicated preamp and then a really good power amp could be better than a AVR for 1100$... the biggest difference will not be in the dac/preamp section but... we have a measurable difference so why not? I can continue with the power amp so I can use two different systems this way.
With a dynawox preamp switch it could just be one or two simple switching away and you can enjoy dedicated music listening. That's a plan anyway...
I think it can be quite fun to easy change and test different equipments in the chain to se the difference If this works it will be so easy I could even do blind tests

A bit off topic but... I think that the DAC and preamp can have a small effect but the power amp a big effect on the sound and sound stage...
In this forum a lot of persons think all amp sounds the same with same power and speakers, however that's not reality in most cases. All the equipment in the chain tend to colour the sound more or less. Tube amps more than transistors maybe, transistors more than premium class D? I am still not convinced its has to be a bad thing. If I listen to B&W 601 with a Onix amp its not the same sound as with the Vincent amp. does it mean its better? Maybe they are both good in different ways, they both have beautiful sound impressive sound stage but for my ears and long time listening I choose onix sound every time....when I compare the Vincent poweramp to a NAD 747 same pre in the NAD the sound is also completely different much more than DAC changing. I am quite convinced that a stereo with a speaker and a room never ever can 100% present the music as in the studio.... and what if the warmer sound or the wider sound stage is more preferable than the studio recording even if we came a lot closer... What if it was meant to sounds like a 3000$ Rotel amp in the studio? For me its more clinical and bright than enjoyable but still impressive...but my hi-fi journey has pretty much just begun I still would'nt care how it was meant in the studio but what I enjoy at home.... This is something I plan to experiment with. I am quite sure that I dont want the sound to be badly converted in the DAC since I use a SMSL DAC that messure extremely well tih the old Onix amp and the sound is still warm and smooth

 

[linuxfan]

I plan to use my TV with Tidal app

Just checking - your TV (possibly an Android TV) - has the TIDAL Music app installed?
Wouldn't it be more convenient to run (and control) TIDAL from your smartphone or tablet?
Because according to the Web Manual, the Denon AVR-X3800H has TIDAL Connect -
https://manuals.denon.com/AVRX3800H/NA/EN/DRDZSYurqiugvx.php
though you might need to do a firmware update to get this feature.

 

[Arc78]

Just checking - your TV (possibly an Android TV) - has the TIDAL Music app installed?
Wouldn't it be more convenient to run (and control) TIDAL from your smartphone or tablet?
Because according to the Web Manual, the Denon AVR-X3800H has TIDAL Connect -
https://manuals.denon.com/AVRX3800H/NA/EN/DRDZSYurqiugvx.php
though you might need to do a firmware update to get this feature.

Interesting if a run the app in th receiver how can I benefit? Right now I use everything with hdmi arc out habit

 

[linuxfan]

Right now I use everything with hdmi arc out of habit

That is technically sub-optimal. HDMI multiplex/demultiplex chips have high rates of jitter, but more importantly most are locked, by design, at 48kHz - which is the native sample rate of digital TV broadcasting, as well as most Blu-ray discs.
But TIDAL may send you streams which are 44.1kHz, 88.2kHz, 96kHz, 176.4kHz, or 192kHz - all of these will endure sample rate conversion to 48kHz.

if I run the app in the receiver how can I benefit?

First let me explain how this works; TIDAL Connect is not the full TIDAL application, just the streamer/endpoint component. Once TIDAL Connect is activated on your Denon receiver, TIDAL on your smartphone will "see" the Denon as a valid endpoint - then you just select it as output device, and the TIDAL stream will be re-directed to the Denon, bypassing your smartphone, which now becomes just a control device. The re-directed stream is free of any additional compression, as would otherwise be the case with AirPlay or Bluetooth.

Benefits;
- optimal signal quality, as above.
- no need to leave a large TV display running while you listen to music.
- the interface - both display and control - is truly portable as you walk around the room/house.

Connection from Denon to an external DAC would ideally be done via S/PDIF or USB-audio, but unfortunately Denon does not provide such ... however the above configuration gets you going with optimised TIDAL streaming via your existing Denon streamer/amplifier.

If you want to get TIDAL working with a higher quality DAC/preamp/amp, I suggest you avoid the Denon (and TV) altogether, and set up a completely separate system. Buy a WiiM streamer to use with your SMSL DAC.

 

[Arc78]

That is technically sub-optimal. HDMI multiplex/demultiplex chips have high rates of jitter, but more importantly most are locked, by design, at 48kHz - which is the native sample rate of digital TV broadcasting, as well as most Blu-ray discs.
But TIDAL may send you streams which are 44.1kHz, 88.2kHz, 96kHz, 176.4kHz, or 192kHz - all of these will endure sample rate conversion to 48kHz.


First let me explain how this works; TIDAL Connect is not the full TIDAL application, just the streamer/endpoint component. Once TIDAL Connect is activated on your Denon receiver, TIDAL on your smartphone will "see" the Denon as a valid endpoint - then you just select it as output device, and the TIDAL stream will be re-directed to the Denon, bypassing your smartphone, which now becomes just a control device. The re-directed stream is free of any additional compression, as would otherwise be the case with AirPlay or Bluetooth.

Benefits;
- optimal signal quality, as above.
- no need to leave a large TV display running while you listen to music.
- the interface - both display and control - is truly portable as you walk around the room/house.

Connection from Denon to an external DAC would ideally be done via S/PDIF or USB-audio, but unfortunately Denon does not provide such ... however the above configuration gets you going with optimised TIDAL streaming via your existing Denon streamer/amplifier.

If you want to get TIDAL working with a higher quality DAC/preamp/amp, I suggest you avoid the Denon (and TV) altogether, and set up a completely separate system. Buy a WiiM streamer to use with your SMSL DAC.

Thank you it was a very informative reply.
Well I guess in a living room situation the TV has its own huge benefits.
+ Is a large screen where you also see a music video with your artist singing. Not always but anyway nice when available.
+Is easy and comfortable and relaxing to read not small display like the phone where maybe glasses needed
+Super easy to navigate. Take a second.
+Is completely lossless since it transmits the HDMI digital bitstream or toslink.
+Is anyway on in the living room you just change to music
Is no collision since you never watch a movie while playing music anyway.
I planned buying a wiim ultra but started thinking it can never compete with the presentation of the TV?
I think the portability is more likely to be a benefit for a kitchen stereo when doing other things at same time, since I’m in living room listening to music concert I most likely be in the sweet spot anyway.
But question is can hdmi out for zone2 not work to extract the audio stream without the hassle with dropping the stream from tv to receiver?
I think that will be the easiest way to go from movie to music mode if it can work

 

[Arc78]

That is technically sub-optimal. HDMI multiplex/demultiplex chips have high rates of jitter, but more importantly most are locked, by design, at 48kHz - which is the native sample rate of digital TV broadcasting, as well as most Blu-ray discs.
But TIDAL may send you streams which are 44.1kHz, 88.2kHz, 96kHz, 176.4kHz, or 192kHz - all of these will endure sample rate conversion to 48kHz.


First let me explain how this works; TIDAL Connect is not the full TIDAL application, just the streamer/endpoint component. Once TIDAL Connect is activated on your Denon receiver, TIDAL on your smartphone will "see" the Denon as a valid endpoint - then you just select it as output device, and the TIDAL stream will be re-directed to the Denon, bypassing your smartphone, which now becomes just a control device. The re-directed stream is free of any additional compression, as would otherwise be the case with AirPlay or Bluetooth.

Benefits;
- optimal signal quality, as above.
- no need to leave a large TV display running while you listen to music.
- the interface - both display and control - is truly portable as you walk around the room/house.

Connection from Denon to an external DAC would ideally be done via S/PDIF or USB-audio, but unfortunately Denon does not provide such ... however the above configuration gets you going with optimised TIDAL streaming via your existing Denon streamer/amplifier.

If you want to get TIDAL working with a higher quality DAC/preamp/amp, I suggest you avoid the Denon (and TV) altogether, and set up a completely separate system. Buy a WiiM streamer to use with your SMSL DAC.

I didn’t see what you wrote about quality interesting indeed thought hdmi was full quality since it can stream all atmos channels
I would need to understand more to understand why a network streamer access higher quality streams than through hdmi arc
It is a strange design for cable that can transport 8k movie and Dolby atmos andnetwork without hassle

 

[AnalogSteph]

With HDMI, audio always has to play by the rules of video transmission. It basically takes up spare slots in the video data stream, kind of like teletext.

HDMI - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Transition-minimized differential signaling (TMDS) on HDMI interleaves video, audio and auxiliary data using three different packet types, called the video data period, the data island period and the control period. During the video data period, the pixels of an active video line are transmitted. During the data island period (which occurs during the horizontal and vertical blanking intervals), audio and auxiliary data are transmitted within a series of packets. The control period occurs between video and data island periods.[5]: §5.1.2 

There is no dedicated audio clock, and clock recovery is even more tricky than for S/P-DIF..

ARC uses the classic S/P-DIF data format using misc. transmission modes: Single Mode (one wire, up to 3 Mbit/s), Common Mode (two wires, up to 12 Mbit/s), and eARC in HDMI 2.1 introduced differential signalling for a major boost in bandwidth so it will accommodate up to 32 24/192 channels (38 Mbit/s).

Dolby Atmos over HDMI ARC for Smart Home Pros | CEDIA

Explore how Dolby Atmos over HDMI ARC enhances audio experiences, delivering immersive sound without extra cables for a seamless setup in your smart home.

cedia.org

 

[Arc78]

hmm this made me even more confused so HDMI Arc if hdmi 2.1 is very good? But still how to get that out of the Denon to the DAC? And I guess I need to change to a new TV to get eArc... ok thats a long way until I reach that...

 

[Arc78]

But still very interesting

 

[90sNintendoKid]

I have an AVR for movies and Wiim Ultra for music in my setup. I use a Bobwire RCA1 and it automatically switches between the two and they share two Fosi V3 monos. This is for my left and right speakers and two subwoofers.

 

[Arc78]

That one looks really good and wonderful product, I haven't solved how to get the audio out of the Denon receiver loss less yet I have to solve that also I like to avoid to have to many machines doing the same thing but a DAC and preamp then a switch I can change source for power amp... could be something for stereo listening. If I need two dofferent power amps I am not sure since I bought the NAD M25 i might be good enough for both multi channel and movie