No, just called life But progress is on the feature set. For that price it’s give and takeIt still makes me laugh that on ASR the Denon 3600, 3700 and 4700 AVR's all measure higher than the 3800 and 4800. That's progress.
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Seeking for confirmation; stick to Denon AVC-X4700h of step up to Marantz SR8015
- Thread starter Brambo67
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No conspiracy afoot, Simply the result of the 2020 AKM factory fire in Japan.It still makes me laugh that on ASR the Denon 3600, 3700 and 4700 AVR's all measure higher than the 3800 and 4800. That's progress.
All the DAC chips that were producing those results disappeared and the manufacturers were forced to
use less stellar performing chips.
Fire Destroys AKM Audio Chip Factory: Can 2020 Get Any Worse?
An inferno that blazed for three straight days devastated the AKM semiconductor factory in Nobeoka City, Japan. Read on to learn how this will this affect audio products from your favorite manufacturers.
www.audioholics.com
Well not exactly. That could have been the solution for the 2021/22 gen as those were admittedly dark times in the supply chain. 2022/3 gen of 3/4800H could have for sure used DACs from other sources and potentially achieved higher SINAD. This was a decision D&M made and we never seen any apologies of explanation for that. Perhaps just to distinguish bench from the higher end products?
In any case, I would not think that it really makes audible difference for most. For ones that care for whatever reason, there is much to choose from.
In any case, I would not think that it really makes audible difference for most. For ones that care for whatever reason, there is much to choose from.
Reasonable is a term of art rather than science. If consumers did not like the specs, they could have gone with the higher specs in other products.
People are making a fuss over this decision for years now and while D&M are in financial trouble, it is definitely not because of the choice of DACs.
People are making a fuss over this decision for years now and while D&M are in financial trouble, it is definitely not because of the choice of DACs.
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You make excellent points here. The Masimo decision seems like a very poor one. It cost the founder of the company his whole lifes work and a lot of money gone. Unlike Voxx, there seems to be no plan to cut costs or to do anything but look for a buyer or simply sell it off. Everything I have read looks rather bleak for Sound United. Our hobby is a niche at best. Sad for me becaue the Denon product line for the last 10 years has been pretty stellar. I am running the akm version with auro. It's really a wonderful sounding product.Actually, I think the reason Denon is in financial trouble today may be the same reason a lower quality DAC was substituted after the AKM fire. It's simple greed. And a lack of long term thoughtful planning?
Sound United sold itself to Masimo for $1.025 billion just as AVR sales were highest from the Covid "Stay out of theatre" trend. By Q3 2024, normality returned and consumer audio revenue declined to $161.4 million, down from $171.5 million the previous year. Who thought HUGE and FAST price increases in Denon AVR's was sustainable? Yep, Masimo's consumer division (including Denon) reported a $31.3 million loss over nine months. Once people got back to theatre for $10 a seat, fewer were willing to pay $5K-10K for Denon Home Theatre and speakers? And by the way, housing prices went up 30% and home interest rates jumped from 3.25% to almost 7%. Now maybe you don't even have room or cash for a theatre?
Hind sight is always 20/20. But what do you see in the next two years? Probably a trend for even less home theatre gear as square footage is at an all time premium and maybe Denon/Marantz won't be around by the end of 2025 as Masimo might be thinking if they dump Sound United a portion of the $5 billion in market capitalization they lost will slowly reappear?
Obviously, Denon is going to need a white knight to survive. Maybe it will be someone who see's keeping customers happy with a decent DAC again is important? One can only hope.
- Thread Starter
- #66
All, I was able to buy my AVC x6800h with 11 amps, 13 channels of processing and ESS Dac's, with better spec's than the previous AKM ones, for € 1.850,00... and yes that was a bargain but prices are coming down again in Europe. If you look at the technology they put in these boxes they deliver a very nice product. And by the way; the TI spec'd 4700 never let me down and was bought for € 1.400,00 in 2021. I too belief we are in a niche hobby and if we want companies to be able to supply what we belief is needed for home cinema we should be willing to pay premium.
- Thread Starter
- #67
To be honest; there is nou doubt in my mind the Denon brand will continue to exist and the same applies to Marantz for that matter. Who will own it and how much they will be willing to invest I don't know. Supply chains are rationalizing all the time and this may be a next step. In this, and other fora, it was said Onkyo would file for bankruptcy. Since then they launched the mighty TX-RZ70 that we like so much. So yes, you're right I bought it as a great bargain and yes the list price probably is too high but for me there is no fear it will be their last product.
100%, they could have substituted the AKM IC with ESS or others at time, even the lower end ESS chip like the ES9006 used by Yamaha's midrange RX-A receivers has SINAD of over 100 dB, vs the PCM5102A's 93 dB. There also other PCM ICs they used in earlier models if they choose to. The lower SINAD achievers D+M picked were self inflicted, though triggered by the fire. Obviously D+M had their reasons to go with the 5102A, we just don't know what those reasons were.
I really don't have much about Denon's pricing, even if the DAC downgrade (that yes I felt was their missed opportunity, and a mistake for saving pennies) because:
- Increased channel counts for processing in some models.
- added the flexible preamp mode feature.
- added 2 more discrete subwoofer output channels.
- added directional bass options, many don't like it, but in theory it is a good thing.
- added Dirac Live, bass control, potentially ART capabilities.
- improved build quality of the power transformers in the 3000/4000 series (may not be the case as I based this on their visual looks only).
Above are just additions that cost more to implement than the models replaced.
My issues is Marantz, and is only for NA customers/potential customers who have to pay at least 2-3 times the price gap between the D and M models elsewhere in the world. My educated guess is that sooner or later, they would have to put the Cinema series on sales, probably shortly before or after launching the new models.
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My Xmas gift was the rz70. It was 1850 open box. I have not set it up but absolutely bought it knowing Onkyo was most likely ending. The prestige and good product line might save Sound United but Onkyo has nothing and very little market share. I admired them for including full Dirac on there newly designed avrs. I tried a couple of the 1k dollar ones. They were cheaply made and didn't have any real upmixing besides dsu. They also had global settings for cross overs. They sounded clear but Denon was a superior product. Then when the rz70 was released it was hard to ignore becaue it included auro, great bench test from audioholics, and was significantly cheaper than the 6800. Now that I have one, I am exhausted by the idea of setting it up. The thing must weigh at least 50 pounds. It's a monster. My wife thinks I am daft for asking for something and then leaving in the box.
Gentex bought Voxx last month. Onkyo is not going anywhere!
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Do not hold your breath. The Onlyo brand is negligible. They acquired the entire company and all the product line for 196 million dollars. Thats like a fire sale . The market downturn for these products is like running at 30 percent. Onkyo as a brand is not the revenue producer for Premium Audio it's Klipsch.. by far. They would have to rebrand it and push it into automobiles or something to keep it going. Gentec released the same vague statement about synergy and strategic placement that all these companies release. I am rooting for Onkyo but unless they put real capitalization into the product line or introduce into autos ..I don't see it. I hope I am wrong.
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