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Seeking for confirmation; stick to Denon AVC-X4700h of step up to Marantz SR8015

I would take a guess that:

a) Manufacturers know very well SINAD, unless noise dominated in an extreme way, does not correlate well with perceived sound quality by most AVP/AVR users, let alone separates audiophile users.
b) They also know most users are not very technically oriented, most don't know how to interpret the detailed DAC specs on datasheets either, even if they see them, and in most cases they don't see them, and/or have no interests in those things, it's just too much work for them.

So, manufacturers might just focus more (rightfully in most cases I guess) on things that potential buyers would focus on, things like power output, power consumption, dac brand, example: many do know/think ESS Sabre stuffs are good, not know that it depends on the specific modes such that there ESS dac chips that has lower specs than TI, AKM, Wolfson or vice versa, as DAC manufacturers do offer at least several chips, at different specs and price points for their customers to choose from. They might also face marketing conditions that would force them to choose specific parts such as DAC, OPA ICs (chips) based on prices, unit price for those ICs are very sensitive to sales volume, among other factors so their prices would fluctuate. For example, there seem to have no good reason for D+M, Onkyo, to choose the PCM5100 series DAC ICs based on the much lower specs, but it might be possible that there were offered irresistible prices at the time, when TI knows full well that due to the shortage of the AKM ICs, it was a great opportunity for them to off load their inventory of those ICs (the PCM5100/5101/5102 that might be close to their retirement age lol.

In my opinion, there may or may not be any point chasing higher SINAD that is higher than a certain point, and that's why a few years ago, I would not have suggested anyone to choose something like a Marantz SR7012 or 7013 over the Denon AVR-X4400 or X4500H for use as AVP, knowing full well the Denon models had 25-30 dB higher SINAD on the test benches if the premium for going with the Marantz were $500 more based on list price, but at several points on the time line, I almost bought a SR7012, 7013 just for back up to my X4400H, because they were on sale at price level significantly lower than that of the AVR-X4500H!! Reason is, the Marantz models were measured at 75-76 dB SINAD, same as the AV7705 AVP, and you look at the FFT, you can see clearly that the make up of the 75 dB total are mainly the 3rd and 5th harmonics and the 5th barely exceeds -90 dB with noise included at that point, so in this example I wouldn't be concerned about hearing distortions, and if I do, I might not be offended by it at all, some people even enjoyed that little bit of salt and pepper.

So, to me, the reasons I would/might still chase SINAD (only to a point) are the following:

a) Higher SINAD is a reasonably reliable indicator that the product is engineered well, for example, we have to give D+M the credit, that they manage to implement the TI DAC IC, with SINAD specs of 93 dB, to achieve high SINAD in the range 87 to 93 dB on the ASR test bench for the X3800H through Cinema 40.

b) Anthem AVM90 is probably the only one at the time of launch that utilized the flagship (not now but back then) ESS Sabre DAC IC, namely the very expensive ES9038Pro used in many separate desktop DACs that Amir had measured over the years, that thing's SINAD spec is a truly whopping 122 dB and DNR of 132 dB (best conditions)!! Yet, on the benches it only achieved about 103 dB, so no one can claim logically that the AVM90's >2X the price of the AVM70 can be justified on the much raved claims (see fans on that thousand page AVM70/90 thread on AVSF) that the 90 sounded so much better because of the better parts and circuitry used in the 90 over the 70.

The above two examples (there are many of course those are just easy picks) show smart shoppers might need to dive in a little deeper, if they are to decide on whether to pay more for the SINAD, but is sort of irrelevant if one don't care much about SINAD as in that case just go with features, aesthetic, perceived reliability, after sales support and obviously, price.

c) Lastly, if the unit under consideration has the needed features, and the price is right but SINAD is below say, 75 dB, then regardless of 65 dB might be transparent enough, I would still avoid the product because I don't like the feeling of not understanding why such a product cannot do better than 75 dB SINAD. One argument against the product could be, if it does rather poorly, or say unimpressively in that one metric, what other negatives would there be on this product overall? I don't know the answer but I think it is a fair question.

d) This is actually relative to c) above, that is, if SINAD is 75 dB on Amir's test bench, we must take a look of the other metrics he tested/measured, such as IMD and frequency dependency because the 75 dB is for testing at 1 kHz, so at 5-7.5 kHz, SINAD might be as low as 65 dB or even 60 dB, and we all know that if THD+N is bad, IMD might also take a hit because the two are related. In a sense, we need some sort of buffer, or headroom?

Now, AV10 and AVM90 owners like you, would not have to be concerned about any of my points above, that for just this reason, it is well worth the high $ you guys pay. You can just sit back and enjoy your gear, knowing that they are transparent and will sound great as long as the source you play are well recorded and mastered. Anyone who try to convince you that his/her gear wound better would just be their opinions, likely based on not doing their listening in apples to apples comparisons.



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It still makes me laugh that on ASR the Denon 3600, 3700 and 4700 AVR's all measure higher than the 3800 and 4800. That's progress. :D
 
It still makes me laugh that on ASR the Denon 3600, 3700 and 4700 AVR's all measure higher than the 3800 and 4800. That's progress. :D
No, just called life But progress is on the feature set. For that price it’s give and take
 
It still makes me laugh that on ASR the Denon 3600, 3700 and 4700 AVR's all measure higher than the 3800 and 4800. That's progress. :D
No conspiracy afoot, Simply the result of the 2020 AKM factory fire in Japan.
All the DAC chips that were producing those results disappeared and the manufacturers were forced to
use less stellar performing chips.
 
Well not exactly. That could have been the solution for the 2021/22 gen as those were admittedly dark times in the supply chain. 2022/3 gen of 3/4800H could have for sure used DACs from other sources and potentially achieved higher SINAD. This was a decision D&M made and we never seen any apologies of explanation for that. Perhaps just to distinguish bench from the higher end products?

In any case, I would not think that it really makes audible difference for most. For ones that care for whatever reason, there is much to choose from.
 
No conspiracy afoot, Simply the result of the 2020 AKM factory fire in Japan.
All the DAC chips that were producing those results disappeared and the manufacturers were forced to
use less stellar performing chips.

While Denon had several options available, the decision to use a lower-performing DAC instead of seeking a closer match likely stemmed from a combination of supply chain constraints and cost considerations. The impact on audio quality has been debated among users, with some expressing disappointment over replacing AKM with a TI DAC. Denon could have avoided this with the use of ESS DAC's at a minimal price difference per AVR. When you look at the HUGE price increase of Denon receivers there's really no reasonable reason for a DAC part downgrade.
 
Reasonable is a term of art rather than science. If consumers did not like the specs, they could have gone with the higher specs in other products.

People are making a fuss over this decision for years now and while D&M are in financial trouble, it is definitely not because of the choice of DACs.
 
Reasonable is a term of art rather than science. If consumers did not like the specs, they could have gone with the higher specs in other products.

People are making a fuss over this decision for years now and while D&M are in financial trouble, it is definitely not because of the choice of DACs.

Actually, I think the reason Denon is in financial trouble today may be the same reason a lower quality DAC was substituted after the AKM fire. It's simple greed. And a lack of long term thoughtful planning?

Sound United sold itself to Masimo for $1.025 billion just as AVR sales were highest from the Covid "Stay out of theatre" trend. By Q3 2024, normality returned and consumer audio revenue declined to $161.4 million, down from $171.5 million the previous year. Who thought HUGE and FAST price increases in Denon AVR's was sustainable? Yep, Masimo's consumer division (including Denon) reported a $31.3 million loss over nine months. Once people got back to theatre for $10 a seat, fewer were willing to pay $5K-10K for Denon Home Theatre and speakers? And by the way, housing prices went up 30% and home interest rates jumped from 3.25% to almost 7%. Now maybe you don't even have room or cash for a theatre?

Hind sight is always 20/20. But what do you see in the next two years? Probably a trend for even less home theatre gear as square footage is at an all time premium and maybe Denon/Marantz won't be around by the end of 2025 as Masimo might be thinking if they dump Sound United a portion of the $5 billion in market capitalization they lost will slowly reappear?

Obviously, Denon is going to need a white knight to survive. Maybe it will be someone who see's keeping customers happy with a decent DAC again is important? One can only hope. :D
 
Actually, I think the reason Denon is in financial trouble today may be the same reason a lower quality DAC was substituted after the AKM fire. It's simple greed. And a lack of long term thoughtful planning?

Sound United sold itself to Masimo for $1.025 billion just as AVR sales were highest from the Covid "Stay out of theatre" trend. By Q3 2024, normality returned and consumer audio revenue declined to $161.4 million, down from $171.5 million the previous year. Who thought HUGE and FAST price increases in Denon AVR's was sustainable? Yep, Masimo's consumer division (including Denon) reported a $31.3 million loss over nine months. Once people got back to theatre for $10 a seat, fewer were willing to pay $5K-10K for Denon Home Theatre and speakers? And by the way, housing prices went up 30% and home interest rates jumped from 3.25% to almost 7%. Now maybe you don't even have room or cash for a theatre?

Hind sight is always 20/20. But what do you see in the next two years? Probably a trend for even less home theatre gear as square footage is at an all time premium and maybe Denon/Marantz won't be around by the end of 2025 as Masimo might be thinking if they dump Sound United a portion of the $5 billion in market capitalization they lost will slowly reappear?

Obviously, Denon is going to need a white knight to survive. Maybe it will be someone who see's keeping customers happy with a decent DAC again is important? One can only hope. :D
You make excellent points here. The Masimo decision seems like a very poor one. It cost the founder of the company his whole lifes work and a lot of money gone. Unlike Voxx, there seems to be no plan to cut costs or to do anything but look for a buyer or simply sell it off. Everything I have read looks rather bleak for Sound United. Our hobby is a niche at best. Sad for me becaue the Denon product line for the last 10 years has been pretty stellar. I am running the akm version with auro. It's really a wonderful sounding product.
 
All, I was able to buy my AVC x6800h with 11 amps, 13 channels of processing and ESS Dac's, with better spec's than the previous AKM ones, for € 1.850,00... and yes that was a bargain but prices are coming down again in Europe. If you look at the technology they put in these boxes they deliver a very nice product. And by the way; the TI spec'd 4700 never let me down and was bought for € 1.400,00 in 2021. I too belief we are in a niche hobby and if we want companies to be able to supply what we belief is needed for home cinema we should be willing to pay premium.
 
All, I was able to buy my AVC x6800h with 11 amps, 13 channels of processing and ESS Dac's, with better spec's than the previous AKM ones, for € 1.850,00... and yes that was a bargain but prices are coming down again in Europe. If you look at the technology they put in these boxes they deliver a very nice product. And by the way; the TI spec'd 4700 never let me down and was bought for € 1.400,00 in 2021. I too belief we are in a niche hobby and if we want companies to be able to supply what we belief is needed for home cinema we should be willing to pay premium.

And yet, (based on prices quoted) you are only buying when Denon is offering a fire sale? Just like everyone else. No one wants to pay a premium. Especially, for a product from a company that may not be around next year.
 
And yet, (based on prices quoted) you are only buying when Denon is offering a fire sale? Just like everyone else. No one wants to pay a premium. Especially, for a product from a company that may not be around next year.
To be honest; there is nou doubt in my mind the Denon brand will continue to exist and the same applies to Marantz for that matter. Who will own it and how much they will be willing to invest I don't know. Supply chains are rationalizing all the time and this may be a next step. In this, and other fora, it was said Onkyo would file for bankruptcy. Since then they launched the mighty TX-RZ70 that we like so much. So yes, you're right I bought it as a great bargain and yes the list price probably is too high but for me there is no fear it will be their last product.
 
Well not exactly. That could have been the solution for the 2021/22 gen as those were admittedly dark times in the supply chain. 2022/3 gen of 3/4800H could have for sure used DACs from other sources and potentially achieved higher SINAD. This was a decision D&M made and we never seen any apologies of explanation for that. Perhaps just to distinguish bench from the higher end products?

In any case, I would not think that it really makes audible difference for most. For ones that care for whatever reason, there is much to choose from.
100%, they could have substituted the AKM IC with ESS or others at time, even the lower end ESS chip like the ES9006 used by Yamaha's midrange RX-A receivers has SINAD of over 100 dB, vs the PCM5102A's 93 dB. There also other PCM ICs they used in earlier models if they choose to. The lower SINAD achievers D+M picked were self inflicted, though triggered by the fire. Obviously D+M had their reasons to go with the 5102A, we just don't know what those reasons were.
 
To be honest; there is nou doubt in my mind the Denon brand will continue to exist and the same applies to Marantz for that matter. Who will own it and how much they will be willing to invest I don't know. Supply chains are rationalizing all the time and this may be a next step. In this, and other fora, it was said Onkyo would file for bankruptcy. Since then they launched the mighty TX-RZ70 that we like so much. So yes, you're right I bought it as a great bargain and yes the list price probably is too high but for me there is no fear it will be their last product.

I really don't have much about Denon's pricing, even if the DAC downgrade (that yes I felt was their missed opportunity, and a mistake for saving pennies) because:
- Increased channel counts for processing in some models.
- added the flexible preamp mode feature.
- added 2 more discrete subwoofer output channels.
- added directional bass options, many don't like it, but in theory it is a good thing.
- added Dirac Live, bass control, potentially ART capabilities.
- improved build quality of the power transformers in the 3000/4000 series (may not be the case as I based this on their visual looks only).

Above are just additions that cost more to implement than the models replaced.

My issues is Marantz, and is only for NA customers/potential customers who have to pay at least 2-3 times the price gap between the D and M models elsewhere in the world. My educated guess is that sooner or later, they would have to put the Cinema series on sales, probably shortly before or after launching the new models.
 
I really don't have much about Denon's pricing, even if the DAC downgrade (that yes I felt was their missed opportunity, and a mistake for saving pennies) because:
- Increased channel counts for processing in some models.
- added the flexible preamp mode feature.
- added 2 more discrete subwoofer output channels.
- added directional bass options, many don't like it, but in theory it is a good thing.
- added Dirac Live, bass control, potentially ART capabilities.
- improved build quality of the power transformers in the 3000/4000 series (may not be the case as I based this on their visual looks only).

Above are just additions that cost more to implement than the models replaced.

My issues is Marantz, and is only for NA customers/potential customers who have to pay at least 2-3 times the price gap between the D and M models elsewhere in the world. My educated guess is that sooner or later, they would have to put the Cinema series on sales, probably shortly before or after launching the new models.

In a crazy world where I could custom order a Denon AVR with the options I want. Here's what it would look like:
1. Stay with two sub out instead of four.
2. Have high quality DACs installed.
3. Stay with Audyssey as it meets my need without paying $500 more (minus mid bass dip by default setting)
4. Order a version with ZERO amps and full pre-amp mode only.
5. Include XLR connections for amps.
6. Include a version of HEOS that's fully functional with all major streamers including Qobuz, Tidal, Amazon, Apple. And improve the navigation so it could work as a quality playback app on a PC/Mac as well. Functionality, it would be as good as Audirvana or have a version of Audirvana included with each Denon.

In theory, this could cost almost half of current models without the amps. It would offer superior performance and could completely take over the audiophile market for people like me that use external amps anyway. It would also reduce energy usage drastically as well as heat. This component would ship much safer and weigh close to 25% of current models. That's just me! :p

If you were able to custom design your next AVR what would it look like?
 
To be honest; there is nou doubt in my mind the Denon brand will continue to exist and the same applies to Marantz for that matter. Who will own it and how much they will be willing to invest I don't know. Supply chains are rationalizing all the time and this may be a next step. In this, and other fora, it was said Onkyo would file for bankruptcy. Since then they launched the mighty TX-RZ70 that we like so much. So yes, you're right I bought it as a great bargain and yes the list price probably is too high but for me there is no fear it will be their last product.
My Xmas gift was the rz70. It was 1850 open box. I have not set it up but absolutely bought it knowing Onkyo was most likely ending. The prestige and good product line might save Sound United but Onkyo has nothing and very little market share. I admired them for including full Dirac on there newly designed avrs. I tried a couple of the 1k dollar ones. They were cheaply made and didn't have any real upmixing besides dsu. They also had global settings for cross overs. They sounded clear but Denon was a superior product. Then when the rz70 was released it was hard to ignore becaue it included auro, great bench test from audioholics, and was significantly cheaper than the 6800. Now that I have one, I am exhausted by the idea of setting it up. The thing must weigh at least 50 pounds. It's a monster. My wife thinks I am daft for asking for something and then leaving in the box.
 
My Xmas gift was the rz70. It was 1850 open box. I have not set it up but absolutely bought it knowing Onkyo was most likely ending. The prestige and good product line might save Sound United but Onkyo has nothing and very little market share. I admired them for including full Dirac on there newly designed avrs. I tried a couple of the 1k dollar ones. They were cheaply made and didn't have any real upmixing besides dsu. They also had global settings for cross overs. They sounded clear but Denon was a superior product. Then when the rz70 was released it was hard to ignore becaue it included auro, great bench test from audioholics, and was significantly cheaper than the 6800. Now that I have one, I am exhausted by the idea of setting it up. The thing must weigh at least 50 pounds. It's a monster. My wife thinks I am daft for asking for something and then leaving in the box.
Gentex bought Voxx last month. Onkyo is not going anywhere!

 
Do not hold your breath. The Onlyo brand is negligible. They acquired the entire company and all the product line for 196 million dollars. Thats like a fire sale . The market downturn for these products is like running at 30 percent. Onkyo as a brand is not the revenue producer for Premium Audio it's Klipsch.. by far. They would have to rebrand it and push it into automobiles or something to keep it going. Gentec released the same vague statement about synergy and strategic placement that all these companies release. I am rooting for Onkyo but unless they put real capitalization into the product line or introduce into autos ..I don't see it. I hope I am wrong.
 
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