Seeking for confirmation; stick to Denon AVC-X4700h of step up to Marantz SR8015

[Brambo67]

Hi all,

Haven't been posting a lot recently due to being happy with my setup and priorities elsewhere. The other day however the opportunity came up to source a 2nd hand SR8105 with the 'initial' AKM AK 4458 DAC. Probably it would cost me about € 1k (extra) after selling through my current Denon AVC-X4700h with TI PCM5102 DAC. My setup also consists of 2 Marantz power amp's; the MM7025 and MM7055. I drive my 'main' channels with them. The 7025 does front L and R and the 7055 center, surround and back. The 4 remaining Atmos channels are driven by the amp's in the Denon. I run Audyssey and A1 EVO to calibrate and am very satisfied. By the way; I use Wharfedale speakers; EVO 4.4 and 4C for L/R and C and Wharfedale D220 for surround and back.

In the 'ever lasting' quest to 'improve', 'upgrade', 'make better' etc. I decided to take the offer, that is... almost. I now wonder if it is really worth the € 1k investment and hassle to go through setting things up again only to get the AKM DAC. Because;

• I mostly stream Apple music in stereo and that would be using the same inferior TI network DAC (similar to 4700) and not the AKM DAC
• The majority of the ´oomph´ is supplied by both external Marantz amps which leaves more than enough room for the 4 Atmos channels driven by the Denon
• I won´t be getting the option to be able to switch of individual amps in the 8015 (similar to 4700 and NOT similar to recent Marantz and Denon receivers)
• I won't be getting the Dirac option to calibrate with

That 'only' leaves;

• AKM DAC for Toslink or HDMI stereo input, which I don't do anyway
• Similar look as both amps
• 2 extra internal amps (so instead of 7.14 I could go to 7.1.6 which the misses probably won't agree with anyway...)
• Heavy power unit, which I don't need since the external amps take care of the power hungry main channels

So now I think I can better wait and buy a Denon AVC -X6800h when prices drop or even wait for Marantz Cinema 30 prices to come down. Are my assumptions and considerations 'right' ?

 

[EWL5]

I think your current setup is better than the SR8015 on its own. The possibility exists where you will go through the aggravation of selling/trading the 4700 away, connecting everything anew, and just getting a similar sound quality to what you had before (don't know if you're the type of person who's honest about the SQ despite what the SINAD measurements tell you)!

You might be better off waiting for a really good deal on the 6800/Cinema 30 a few years from now if you want that one box solution (no external amps)! Both the 4700 and the 8015 were released in 2020 so not a step-change when it comes to upgrades!

 

[nerdstrike]

If the main amps are outboard, it seems to me that the two products would be close to identical if they're both set up correctly. So the devil is in the detail - does this product work nicely? Does it have some quirks that make it bad versus the other? The 2dB SINAD difference does not speak €1000 to me!

 

[Oddball]

I think you are good on the AVR/Amp front and 2023/4 D&M have some real feature upgrades if you care for those. And those will age as well and became more affordable in the future - as noted.

Spending another $1k on the 2nd sub might be a better investment with more immediate return. Each speaker should have its matching pair, I think? And if girls can't ever have enough diamonds, then boys can't have enough subs

 

[Brambo67]

Thanks for your feedback. Looks like my thinking is right... Here in Netherlands now 4800 on offer for a little over € 1,400. That would make sense from Dirac, and amps perspective. I'll wait until Black Friday and check if I can get one even cheaper.

 

[Brambo67]

Oké, we now have sort of a 'pre-Black Friday'-sale of the... AVC-X6800h over here. Not € 3.500,00 but € 2.250,00... That's seriously reduced and so I'm considering it. However; I will not buy Dirac right now as I'm happy with Audyssey and A1 EVO. I use Argon Solo with ESS Sabre ES9023 for streaming (Airplay 2), Topping E30 with AKM AK 4493 for Apple Music via cable for Hi-Res music. As said the main channels (floor) are driven by Marantz MM 7025 and 7055 power amps. The Atmos height channels by my current AVC-X4700h. The only reasons I can think of for stepping up to X6800h with ESS Sabre ES9017 DAC's are:

• Being able to disconnect centre, surround and back channels from internal amps
  • What would I win? The Marantz MM7025 and 7055 reach max. output @ 1.2V, Denon with TI PCM 5102A, most likely reaches best SINAD @ around that value and IF clipping occurs will be past 1.4V (will that happen????)
• Having the opportunity of adding Dirac once their license fees will drop further
• Getting a 'cleaner' signal path according to the Massimo video and as seen on pictures, whatever that's worth. Amir tested the 'original' x4700h's Pre-amp performance and this was quite good with analog input (97 dB SINAD)
• 3D audio, no idea what it brings
• 2 extra channels for front wide, probably will not use it anyway as wife considers extra speakers to be 'not an option'.....

As I'm not a very technically skilled person I can't really understand what I would gain by being able to disconnect the center and surround channels preventing the internal amps from clipping and so impacting internal DAC. This internal (TI-)Dac only matters for me when I use it for (Atmos material in) movies on Netflix or Blu-ray. When using the AVC (we don't have a tuner in Europe hence AVC and not AVR) as pre-amp with the MM7025, I will stream through the Argon or play Hi-Res through the Topping E30.

So probably the x6800h's ES Sabre ES9107 Dac's would win me a few dB's when playing Atmos material and so using all the channels bar one (7.1.4) That is... if I'm correct and the internal amp's that now cannot be disconnected in the X4700h will cause really lower SINAD. Who can tell me?

 

[peng]

Oké, we now have sort of a 'pre-Black Friday'-sale of the... AVC-X6800h over here. Not € 3.500,00 but € 2.250,00... That's seriously reduced and so I'm considering it. However; I will not buy Dirac right now as I'm happy with Audyssey and A1 EVO. I use Argon Solo with ESS Sabre ES9023 for streaming (Airplay 2), Topping E30 with AKM AK 4493 for Apple Music via cable for Hi-Res music. As said the main channels (floor) are driven by Marantz MM 7025 and 7055 power amps. The Atmos height channels by my current AVC-X4700h. The only reasons I can think of for stepping up to X6800h with ESS Sabre ES9017 DAC's are:

• Being able to disconnect centre, surround and back channels from internal amps
  • What would I win? The Marantz MM7025 and 7055 reach max. output @ 1.2V, Denon with TI PCM 5102A, most likely reaches best SINAD @ around that value and IF clipping occurs will be past 1.4V (will that happen????)
• Having the opportunity of adding Dirac once their license fees will drop further
• Getting a 'cleaner' signal path according to the Massimo video and as seen on pictures, whatever that's worth. Amir tested the 'original' x4700h's Pre-amp performance and this was quite good with analog input (97 dB SINAD)
• 3D audio, no idea what it brings
• 2 extra channels for front wide, probably will not use it anyway as wife considers extra speakers to be 'not an option'.....

As I'm not a very technically skilled person I can't really understand what I would gain by being able to disconnect the center and surround channels preventing the internal amps from clipping and so impacting internal DAC. This internal (TI-)Dac only matters for me when I use it for (Atmos material in) movies on Netflix or Blu-ray. When using the AVC (we don't have a tuner in Europe hence AVC and not AVR) as pre-amp with the MM7025, I will stream through the Argon or play Hi-Res through the Topping E30.

So probably the x6800h's ES Sabre ES9107 Dac's would win me a few dB's when playing Atmos material and so using all the channels bar one (7.1.4) That is... if I'm correct and the internal amp's that now cannot be disconnected in the X4700h will cause really lower SINAD. Who can tell me?

I can tell you the following:

1) With or without the power amp disconnected, the 4700 pre outs will not clip until it reaches at least about 3.5 V, more likely around 4 V or a little higher.

2) As you know, you cannot use preamp mode to disconnect the power amps because you are using some of the AVR power amps.

3) Regardless of 2), you can always disconnect the front L and R channel AVR power amps even in non preamp mode but don't expect audibly better SQ for reasons I mentioned in 1) and 2). Note that the AV7705 preamp/dac/processor also did about 75 dB SINAD and no one complained about sound quality.

4) A about 1.4 V, the AVR's own power amps will be clipping, that's the reason the pre outs SINAD would start to drop, but it would settle at about 75 dB, that is 0.0178% at up to about 2 V and again, will not be clipping until about 3.5 V.

So, I agree the 6800 is nice, and you can expect 100 dB or higher SINAD, but as you already said, at 1.4 to 1.5 V, even the PCM1502A in the 4700 can get you the best SINAD it can do, that could be anywhere between 90 to 95 dB and that's well below the threshold of audibility.

In my opinion, the main attractions of the 6800 are 4 sub-outs and Dirac Live. DLBC can get you audibly better sound quality quickly, though Audyssey or EVO/Nexus could potentially do that for you but might take some work/time playing with settings/target curves etc..

 

[Brambo67]

I can tell you the following:

1) With or without the power amp disconnected, the 4700 pre outs will not clip until it reaches at least about 3.5 V, more likely around 4 V or a little higher.

2) As you know, you cannot use preamp mode to disconnect the power amps because you are using some of the AVR power amps.

3) Regardless of 2), you can always disconnect the front L and R channel AVR power amps even in non preamp mode but don't expect audibly better SQ for reasons I mentioned in 1) and 2). Note that the AV7705 preamp/dac/processor also did about 75 dB SINAD and no one complained about sound quality.

4) A about 1.4 V, the AVR's own power amps will be clipping, that's the reason the pre outs SINAD would start to drop, but it would settle at about 75 dB, that is 0.0178% at up to about 2 V and again, will not be clipping until about 3.5 V.

So, I agree the 6800 is nice, and you can expect 100 dB or higher SINAD, but as you already said, at 1.4 to 1.5 V, even the PCM1502A in the 4700 can get you the best SINAD it can do, that could be anywhere between 90 to 95 dB and that's well below the threshold of audibility.

In my opinion, the main attractions of the 6800 are 4 sub puts and Dirac Live. DLBC can get you audibly better sound quality quickly, though Audyssey or EVO/Nexus could potentially do that for you but might take some work/time playing with seytings/target curves etc..

Clear answer to my questions and much appreciated. I agree with everything you say. I play stereo with 2-channel playback which brings best objective performance, as only pre-amps for front L&R are engaged as well as MM7025 power amp. I can choose direct and use Topping or Argon Solo for input or stereo and engage TI PCM5102a in the chain. Did so many times and you’re right; the sound quality I ‘hear’ is better through ‘stereo’ as Audyssey is playing its tricks and takes all the room weaknesses into account.

I have to decide wanting to step up for the Dirac wizardry and set myself back for about € 1.500,00 (after selling the X4700h) or spend my hard earned €’s elsewhere… Thanks again for your clear observation. I will update this post once I finish my conversation on the topic with myself…

 

[Oddball]

I don’t think you really need 6800H but if you can afford it why not. I would rather spend more for the speakers.

3800H vs 6800H is worth if you need extra channels. They should be equally transparent unless you have truly extraordinary hearing or extremely low noise floor.

 

[Brambo67]

I don’t think you really need 6800H but if you can afford it why not. I would rather spend more for the speakers.

3800H vs 6800H is worth if you need extra channels. They should be equally transparent unless you have truly extraordinary hearing or extremely low noise floor.

I can afford it but one can only spend it one time. My hearing is not too bad but definitely not super… Speakers I’m happy with so no need for upgrading.

 

[Oddball]

I am also happy with my speakers, but not to say that there are no better ones. I will for sure upgrade once I find something worthy of it.

 

[Chrispy]

Only reason I'd change avrs is to get a different feature set (like the 4 independent sub/Dirac options). I wouldn't do it for a dac chip.

 

[Brambo67]

Only reason I'd change avrs is to get a different feature set (like the 4 independent sub/Dirac options). I wouldn't do it for a dac chip.

I’m on one sub now. A second one would be nice. Four overkill in my situation.

 

[Chrispy]

I’m on one sub now. A second one would be nice. Four overkill in my situation.

The 4700 already can do two independently. I have four in my main setup with a 4700 fwiw. While the four sub thing in the avr and Dirac might be nice, I don't particularly need it either (and have a minidsp 2x4 too). The pre-out mode on an avr isn't all that important either.

 

[peng]

I can afford it but one can only spend it one time. My hearing is not too bad but definitely not super… Speakers I’m happy with so no need for upgrading.

If that BF sale is from an authorized dealer so it comes with the Denon warranty, I would be tempted to grab one and sell the 4700 just because it is a good deal. That't just me.

You should be able to sell the 4700 easily once those great sales are over.

 

[Brambo67]

If that BF sale is from an authorized dealer so it comes with the Denon warranty, I would be tempted to grab one and sell the 4700 just because it is a good deal. That't just me.

You should be able to sell the 4700 easily once those great sales are over.

Yes, three Denon dealers made the 6800 the BF-item in their BF-advertisements. However, only few items actually on stock. It does comes with full warranty and indeed I 'tested' sale of the 4700 and got offers in soon. Still contemplating as I got my 4700 @ reduced price as well so would probably 'loose' only a couple of hundred €'s... in three years of use. So... I'm tempted still as well Just might be a good idea to buy and 'test' it. They have a 60-days return policy. To be fair though; this morning I did 'ABC-comparison' (Argon with ES Sabre, Topping with AKM and 4700 with TI) of course everything sounded equally well Still, as my wife tells me; a hobby may cost something...

 

[peng]

Yes, three Denon dealers made the 6800 the BF-item in their BF-advertisements. However, only few items actually on stock. It does comes with full warranty and indeed I 'tested' sale of the 4700 and got offers in soon. Still contemplating as I got my 4700 @ reduced price as well so would probably 'loose' only a couple of hundred €'s... in three years of use. So... I'm tempted still as well Just might be a good idea to buy and 'test' it. They have a 60-days return policy. To be fair though; this morning I did 'ABC-comparison' (Argon with ES Sabre, Topping with AKM and 4700 with TI) of course everything sounded equally well Still, as my wife tells me; a hobby may cost something...

On the objective side of the equation, the ES9017, and the >100 dB SINAD will likely forced your ears/brains to hear even more transparent sound over the 4700 in the long run though. During ABC comparisons, scientific leaning individuals might naturally switch to the mind set that there's no reasons for those units to sound different so it is easier to not hearing the differences many forum hobbyists often claimed, because there really wouldn't be audible differences. In real world use, you are not always listening carefully/critically so you would likely enjoy the perceived/imagined better sound quality when enjoying the movies/music contents, as you do know the unit has better specs, confirmed by bench tests. That's just my take, and I won't/can't debate anyone who has different takes.

DLBC will most likely be on sale (30% typically) soon, either BF or Boxing day. I would love to try EVO, but I am biased, I find Dirac Live improves not only the 14-300 Hz range, but also full range. Can't say the same for Audyssey...

 

[Brambo67]

They now offer the X4800h for about € 1.400,00 which looks like a bargain. Apart from the DAC and two channels less it doesn't seem to bad... These guys tested it and also are positive; https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews...eceivers/denon-avr-x4800h-av-receiver-review/ Seems like an equally serious test as Amir's. Ik now at least now that moving to the ESS Sabre DAC will set me back another € 800,00.

 

[peng]

They now offer the X4800h for about € 1.400,00 which looks like a bargain. Apart from the DAC and two channels less it doesn't seem to bad... These guys tested it and also are positive; https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews...eceivers/denon-avr-x4800h-av-receiver-review/ Seems like an equally serious test as Amir's. Ik now at least now that moving to the ESS Sabre DAC will set me back another € 800,00.

I read that one too, and noted the following subjective part of the review:

Don't really want to re-harsh critics on the claimed musical Marantz sound, but Dr. Rich's take didn't seem to reflect such claims, no surprises obviously as we, as ASR members all know full well "sound quality" is subjective when done sighted.

The Denon AVR-X4800H was more than up to the task of taking on all the sonic spectacles of Open Range through the Axiom speakers. Keep in mind that I usually use a separate power amplifier that can deliver more than 300 WPC into all 5 channels of these Axiom speakers and that I went from a $6,000 Marantz Preamp/Processor and Axiom ADA-1500-5 power amplifier to a $2,500 receiver.

The Denon was at least as clear in these scenes, if not more transparent, than with my Marantz 7703. Keeping in mind that there was no separate amplifier being used and that the receiver’s Audyssey processing was equalizing the subwoofers to their limits in terms of how deep they could go, the Denon did a credible job of extending this bass while keeping all the other audio effects pristine. If you are thinking about a system that can take full-range speakers into the 20 Hz range and don’t have room or possibly desire to have separate components, the Denon AVR-X4800H would be most helpful in reaching that goal.

So, yes, for € 1.400,00, assuming that's Euro so it roughly equal USD, go for it! The DAC is, again, imo one thing that helps with our (mine anyway) imagination for "better sound quality". I had the entry level X1800H that has the same PCM5102A DAC for a few months, no issue with sound quality at all.

 

[Brambo67]

I read that one too, and noted the following subjective part of the review:

Don't really want to re-harsh critics on the claimed musical Marantz sound, but Dr. Rich's take didn't seem to reflect such claims, no surprises obviously as we, as ASR members all know full well "sound quality" is subjective when done sighted.





So, yes, for € 1.400,00, assuming that's Euro so it roughly equal USD, go for it! The DAC is, again, imo one thing that helps with our (mine anyway) imagination for "better sound quality". I had the entry level X1800H that has the same PCM5102A DAC for a few months, no issue with sound quality at all.

Indeed € almost equals $. Most likely it will be one or the other and the 4700 being put for sale. I have 60 days to try before having to return it. What speaks for the 6800 is that it will probably become moer expensive soon so the 60 days also gives me some time to contemplate. Having DIRAC as an option and the full-flexible amp disconnect I like. I'll post my final decision soon.