Denon AVRs vs Integrated stereo Amplifiers for 2 channel music

[Chrispy]

Indeed, the arcam does have dirac live though. But apart form feature set, did you notice a big audible improvement?

I found them relatively the same (when compared similarly, i.e. direct 2ch mode on the avr to leave eq and subs out of the picture), the separates advantage was a bit more power for a bit more capability for loudness. I don't find any of my various avrs vs pre-amp/power amps amps to have particularly signficant different "sound" or a "sound signature" as long as they're suited to purpose. You can always add more power via external amp on the avr if needed. The Arcam may have Dirac but there's still no accommodation for a sub, but that may depend on your speakers or preference (even my towers with decent performance in bass I supplement with subs).

ps You can get Dirac on the newer Denons like the 3800....

 

[Beave]

Truth is the R3 does dip down to 3 ohms but primarily in the bass region. Having a sub I think covers this part. The denon is not rating at 4 ohms although amir tested this with good results. All I know is that the arcam is rated to 4 ohms but not sure how much impact will this have. Indeed we cannot generalise this question, we are comparing specificaly the denon 3700h.

The R3 dips down to about 3 Ohms around 45Hz. That would be mostly negated by using a subwoofer. But they also dip down to near 3 Ohms around 150Hz (below 4 Ohms from 110Hz to 260Hz), which is typically above subwoofer range.

 

[bodhi]

That is a hard pill to swallow given the vast amount of forum posts, reviewers and youtubers but then again there are also many that support your view. It is a very polarizing subject and I hope that someday I will able to experience all this and find out for myself without breaking the bank.

Think about it this way: there is very valid explanation based on a lot of research and which you can verify yourself very easily, that is that our perception is affected by biases, most notably the sighted bias.

Then there is the other explanation that there are differences that science cannot explain, that don't show up in measurements and that are not supported by blind tests. They exist only when people tell about their own experiences.

How on earth can it be hard pill to swallow? Do you by the way believe in manifestation or astrology? There is vastly more subjective evidence compared to audio equipment that these methods are real. Is it equally hard pill to swallow that these things are nonsense?

 

[Toni71]

A nice setup. I just sold my 3700H, which was attached to a pair of Kef R3 meta ( and subs) in the living room, just for stereo music. This sounded great. Before that, the receiver was attached to the R3. And before that to the R7, R11, and Reference 1.

Long story short. I have had the pleasure to experiment with a lot of poweramps, dacs, stereo amplifiers and speakers and else audio and video in my hobby (almost 53 years old now, no children, relative low costs, hard working man). On the attic here, there is a 15.2 setup, with an AV10 and three big poweramps. Of course, to much money spend in the past with changing equipment for no real improvements. What can we really hear with our ears?

My opinion is that the X3700 in your setup (with sub) is more then enough. A different stereo amplifier is a waste of money. The only reason I've sold the X3700H is for a 4800H with Dirac. Just for the fun of the hobby and Dirac did give me an inprovement in the AV10 setup.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

It's a shame I cannot easily mod my amps with watercooling plates like I did with my PC.

You can. But you'd still need a fan or two for the radiator.

 

[GXAlan]

How on earth can it be hard pill to swallow? Do you by the way believe in manifestation or astrology? There is vastly more subjective evidence compared to audio equipment that these methods are real. Is it equally hard pill to swallow that these things are nonsense?

It doesn’t even have to be nonsense. Just needs context.

Even a high end Pioneer Elite might run out of power with as little as 20 watts!

Pioneer VSX-LX505 AVR Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Pioneer VSX-LX505 ELITE 9.2 Channel AV Receiver. It was kindly drop shipped to me by a member and is a refurbished unit. Normal cost is US $1699. As you see, the front panel is the same old interface from decade+ back. The on-screen menus...

www.audiosciencereview.com

There is a superstition in some Asian cultures that it’s bad to drink cold water. You should only drink hot water. This is “nonsense” in the present day, but you can imagine in the era before electricity and the understanding of microbiology and water treatment, it probably was safer to drink water that had been boiled in a pot over a fire as opposed to drinking cold water straight out of a stagnant, cold pond.

It is not hard to imagine that AVRs today are different than AVRs 20 years ago. Except for the AKM fire, we generally see an improvement in performance over time.

 

[GXAlan]

MultEQ X doesn’t replicate Dirac and the algorithms and fir, for me I get more control with the Dsp in my car than MultEQ X gives me

Agree that Dirac has more power, but Audyssey still has a loudness contour which Dirac doesn’t have. At the present day, I have two Dirac enabled products and zero Audyssey products, so I can say that I am a fan of Dirac. That said in the context of buying a SA30 at $3300 list (or $2000 on sale right now), the OP is better off buying a $20 iOS app or maybe even the $200 MultiEQ-X until he has the budget for a Marantz AV10/Monolith HTP-1 down the line where you can get Dirac but there is also a bunch of added features.

I have a Audiotec Fisher DSP amp. What do you have? At some point, I would love to see an AlpineF#1Status measured

Uhm – you are not going to declare Denon’s AVR-X3800H and PMA-1700NE as "high end" "expensive" gear, do you?

It’s pretty high end… yes, you can get summit-fi gear from the likes of Accuphase, MBL, or even Linn’s new Klimax amp and even within D&M, the X3800H and 1700NE aren’t flagships, but it’s “high end” from the standpoint that they will measure above average and you are still dealing with a X series not S series AVR from Denon and the PMA 1700NE is high up in the US product line and isn’t a mini system from Denon.

 

[Vacceo]

You can. But you'd still need a fan or two for the radiator.

Which is an excuse to add RGB.

Singularity Computers makes an external cooling case. It'd be fun to hook up both an amp and PC.

 

[CK.]

I found them relatively the same (when compared similarly, i.e. direct 2ch mode on the avr to leave eq and subs out of the picture), the separates advantage was a bit more power for a bit more capability for loudness. I don't find any of my various avrs vs pre-amp/power amps amps to have particularly signficant different "sound" or a "sound signature" as long as they're suited to purpose. You can always add more power via external amp on the avr if needed. The Arcam may have Dirac but there's still no accommodation for a sub, but that may depend on your speakers or preference (even my towers with decent performance in bass I supplement with subs).

ps You can get Dirac on the newer Denons like the 3800....

That is useful to know thank you!

 

[CK.]

The R3 dips down to about 3 Ohms around 45Hz. That would be mostly negated by using a subwoofer. But they also dip down to near 3 Ohms around 150Hz (below 4 Ohms from 110Hz to 260Hz), which is typically above subwoofer range.

Yeah thats true not sure how the denon handles those loads below 4….

 

[GXAlan]

Yeah thats true not sure how the denon handles those loads below 4….

The older generation products had toroidal transformers, but this may be like the X6800H class in performance.

Denon AVR-4800 THX Ultra digital surround receiver Measurements

Sidebar 2: Measurements Measuring the Denon AVR-4800 took rather longer than I had anticipated, due to the sheer number of options it offers its owner. I ended up looking at the receiver's amplifier performance using either its CD inputs or its External discrete-surround inputs. But first, using...

www.stereophile.com

It can go into protection at 2 ohms, but they were able to get almost 400W

Yamaha used to quote dynamic power into 2 ohms which meant that it could do it for short periods of time

 

[CK.]

Think about it this way: there is very valid explanation based on a lot of research and which you can verify yourself very easily, that is that our perception is affected by biases, most notably the sighted bias.

Then there is the other explanation that there are differences that science cannot explain, that don't show up in measurements and that are not supported by blind tests. They exist only when people tell about their own experiences.

How on earth can it be hard pill to swallow? Do you by the way believe in manifestation or astrology? There is vastly more subjective evidence compared

to audio equipment that these methods are real. Is it equally hard pill to swallow that these things are nonsense?

It is hard in the sense that there is an overwhelming amount of reports from the majority of the audio world claiming audible differences many from well respected industry experts. Obviously i am not convinced either and that is why i am here asking this question

 

[CK.]

A nice setup. I just sold my 3700H, which was attached to a pair of Kef R3 meta ( and subs) in the living room, just for stereo music. This sounded great. Before that, the receiver was attached to the R3. And before that to the R7, R11, and Reference 1.

Long story short. I have had the pleasure to experiment with a lot of poweramps, dacs, stereo amplifiers and speakers and else audio and video in my hobby (almost 53 years old now, no children, relative low costs, hard working man). On the attic here, there is a 15.2 setup, with an AV10 and three big poweramps. Of course, to much money spend in the past with changing equipment for no real improvements. What can we really hear with our ears?

My opinion is that the X3700 in your setup (with sub) is more then enough. A different stereo amplifier is a waste of money. The only reason I've sold the X3700H is for a 4800H with Dirac. Just for the fun of the hobby and Dirac did give me an inprovement in the AV10 setup.

Many thanks for sharing your experience obviously this is super useful to me and you i think you just saved me money! My setup does sound good to me but then again i havent owned a better one to compare it with

 

[5-pot-fan]

That is a hard pill to swallow given the vast amount of forum posts, reviewers and youtubers but then again there are also many that support your view. It is a very polarizing subject and I hope that someday I will able to experience all this and find out for myself without breaking the bank.

I can sympathize with your difficulty in swallowing, but this medicine is effective ( at least for me) and it has the added benefit of helping keep your money in your wallet. Until you want better speakers, anyway ...

 

[GXAlan]

It is hard in the sense that there is an overwhelming amount of reports from the majority of the audio world claiming audible differences many from well respected industry experts. Obviously i am not convinced either and that is why i am here asking this question

If you go to websites like Phileweb or AV Watch Impress in Japan (use Google Translate) you will routinely see the Japanese AV companies pairing their receivers with big audiophile speakers when inviting press to experience their products. You can imagine that if it sounded bad or the setups went into protection mode, it would look really bad.

But like the cold vs hot water thing, old AV products are not as good as new ones…

 

[Dumdum]

Agree that Dirac has more power, but Audyssey still has a loudness contour which Dirac doesn’t have. At the present day, I have two Dirac enabled products and zero Audyssey products, so I can say that I am a fan of Dirac. That said in the context of buying a SA30 at $3300 list (or $2000 on sale right now), the OP is better off buying a $20 iOS app or maybe even the $200 MultiEQ-X until he has the budget for a Marantz AV10/Monolith HTP-1 down the line where you can get Dirac but there is also a bunch of added features.

I have a Audiotec Fisher DSP amp. What do you have? At some point, I would love to see an AlpineF#1Status measured



It’s pretty high end… yes, you can get summit-fi gear from the likes of Accuphase, MBL, or even Linn’s new Klimax amp and even within D&M, the X3800H and 1700NE aren’t flagships, but it’s “high end” from the standpoint that they will measure above average and you are still dealing with a X series not S series AVR from Denon and the PMA 1700NE is high up in the US product line and isn’t a mini system from Denon.

I’m tech consultant for the uk Audiotec Fischer distributor specialising in the Dsp side of things and tuning if you ever get stuck, I’ve owned Dsp.3, .3s, pro 3, ultra and pro 2, plus numerous conductors and directors, AF gear is awesome… soon to own a Brax amp or two currently have a helix C four sat in my front room, but that’s being sold to make way for the Brax gx2400 amp shortly

There are measurements of an old F1 status amp from many moons ago on distortion factory group on facebook

Also measurements of lots of other old school and new school kit inc dsps and similar

 

[Chrispy]

It is hard in the sense that there is an overwhelming amount of reports from the majority of the audio world claiming audible differences many from well respected industry experts. Obviously i am not convinced either and that is why i am here asking this question

Where did most of those reports come from? Reviewers' subjective opinion while asking for advertising dollars? Consumers' lack of proper comparisons (i.e. blinded, level matched, etc) ? Who are the particular experts you're referring to?

 

[dlaloum]

It doesn’t even have to be nonsense. Just needs context.

Even a high end Pioneer Elite might run out of power with as little as 20 watts!

Pioneer VSX-LX505 AVR Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Pioneer VSX-LX505 ELITE 9.2 Channel AV Receiver. It was kindly drop shipped to me by a member and is a refurbished unit. Normal cost is US $1699. As you see, the front panel is the same old interface from decade+ back. The on-screen menus...

www.audiosciencereview.com

There is a superstition in some Asian cultures that it’s bad to drink cold water. You should only drink hot water. This is “nonsense” in the present day, but you can imagine in the era before electricity and the understanding of microbiology and water treatment, it probably was safer to drink water that had been boiled in a pot over a fire as opposed to drinking cold water straight out of a stagnant, cold pond.

It is not hard to imagine that AVRs today are different than AVRs 20 years ago. Except for the AKM fire, we generally see an improvement in performance over time.

I did compare my old 2008 Onkyo SR876 flagship AVR, to my new 2022 Integra DRX 3.4 mass market midrange model...

The Integra wins in almost every way where we are talking about processing, it has HDMI inputs, superiod DAC's, reduced jitter, and handles all the latest formats and codecs (as well as running streaming functions onboard).

BUT....

The old 876 had a far better amp - not a fair comparison, as the current equivalent of the 876 is the RZ70 or Integra DRX 8.4 and not my dinky-di lightweight 3.4.

But the 876, with its massive transformer and capacitors, could handle my difficult speakers with ease, where the 3.4, weighing about 1/3rd what the 876 did.... just didn't sound good driving the speakers - using it as a prepro, running into a power amp resolved the problem - but it does point to a need for caution in generalising...

The 876 has an excellent SPDIF/Toslink input - all the other digital inputs were compromised by Jitter

If what you are looking for is a stereo amp, with limited processing, there are quite a few vintage flagship receivers that would do an excellent job of it, and are available for a song due to their processing capabilities having become obsolete.

 

[Golf]

the 3.4, weighing about 1/3rd what the 876 did

But remember: Weight seems to be the one measurable value of hi-fi audio gear that most of the »objectivists« in this field don’t feel like taking objectively

 

[Chrispy]

But remember: Weight seems to be the one measurable value of hi-fi audio gear that most of the »objectivists« in this field don’t feel like taking objectively

Oh I can see the difference in weight, it's the importance that's unclear.