Denon AVRs vs Integrated stereo Amplifiers for 2 channel music

[jsrtheta]

That is a hard pill to swallow given the vast amount of forum posts, reviewers and youtubers but then again there are also many that support your view. It is a very polarizing subject and I hope that someday I will able to experience all this and find out for myself without breaking the bank.

It's easy to test. If yuo can't tell the differ3ence blind, you

 

[jsrtheta]

It's easy to test. If yuo can't tell the differ3ence blind, you

(Let me try this again.) If you can't tell the difference via valid blind testing, then for you there isn't one. If repeated testing shows that others can't differentiate between the sources tested, then it's likely an answered question.

This has been known for a very long time.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

Actual FLIR photo's of classD modules, show lots of hot patches.... this may be within the manufacturer spec/rating - but they do bode ill for extended lifetime well beyond the manufacturers warranty....

Traditional heavy heatsink engineered AB types, typically get warm but never get "hot" - looking at my Quad 606....

Now an engineer might look at the 606, and say, he could save 10% of the manufacturing costs by reducing the size of those heatsinks, allowing the components to get hotter, and still keep everything within "spec"... and that would be true - but 45 years after that 606 left the factory, it still runs well, sounds great, and seems to be good for another few decades... a lot of amps that run (ran) "hot" aren't around anymore to compete.

I've had 2 AVR's in a row fail within 5 to 6 years of being purchased, with issues that in both cases were related to heat .... both were "within spec" but designs which ran seriously HOT. - I won't be making that mistake again!.

We have come full circle and need to reinvent what has been know as good engineering for decades.

 

[dlaloum]

We have come full circle and need to reinvent what has been know as good engineering for decades.

It's the old story of Rockefeller, of Standard Oil fame - got his workers to test how minimally they could make the barrels before they leaked - reduce it one weld at a time until it leaked, then had them make the barrels with one extra weld... "Just Enough" manufacturing - maximises immediate profit, while ignoring long term consequences (including to reputation).

It's all to do with what one chooses to value - I prefer slightly more focus on longevity.... (would be nice to see longer warranties to match too!)

 

[killdozzer]

I was basing my comments on actual benchtests of AVR's and not spec sheets....

Again, the wrong direction. Spec sheets, and in particular the ones for AVRs, are anything BUT conservative (as they call them). An animal even more rare than an AVR measured at 8 ohm, THD less than 0.1, all channels driven over the entire bandwidth starting under 20Hz and going over 25kHz, is probably an AVR spec sheet which says you'll only get ie. 70w when in fact you can get a clean 90 or a hundred.

I do, in fact, quote spec sheets, but only because after certain measurements the conclusion was backed up. As a rule of thumb for someone who doesn't intend to perform all the measurements, a good advice is to add a fourth when looking at the specs. If you're looking for clean 75w into 8 all channels, look for an AVR speced at a 100.

 

[killdozzer]

Actual FLIR photo's of classD modules, show lots of hot patches.... this may be within the manufacturer spec/rating - but they do bode ill for extended lifetime well beyond the manufacturers warranty....

Traditional heavy heatsink engineered AB types, typically get warm but never get "hot" - looking at my Quad 606....

Now an engineer might look at the 606, and say, he could save 10% of the manufacturing costs by reducing the size of those heatsinks, allowing the components to get hotter, and still keep everything within "spec"... and that would be true - but 45 years after that 606 left the factory, it still runs well, sounds great, and seems to be good for another few decades... a lot of amps that run (ran) "hot" aren't around anymore to compete.

I've had 2 AVR's in a row fail within 5 to 6 years of being purchased, with issues that in both cases were related to heat .... both were "within spec" but designs which ran seriously HOT. - I won't be making that mistake again!.

And that's exactly what I'm saying - a heat sink that meets end goal. Adding a few pounds of machined aluminum to your heatsink wouldn't add few decades. So, the example you're citing is just a bad example. No one is saying that's a job well done.

I had a 1977 Hitachi still working well into it's specification. Sold it actually and precisely because it worked well. Point is, adding pounds of sinks wouldn't make it any better today, 47 years later.

Once you cool an amp properly, the job is done. It's not a "the more the merrier" kind a of a story. Your example is simply not properly cooled.

 

[dlaloum]

And that's exactly what I'm saying - a heat sink that meets end goal. Adding a few pounds of machined aluminum to your heatsink wouldn't add few decades. So, the example you're citing is just a bad example. No one is saying that's a job well done.

I had a 1977 Hitachi still working well into it's specification. Sold it actually and precisely because it worked well. Point is, adding pounds of sinks wouldn't make it any better today, 47 years later.

Once you cool an amp properly, the job is done. It's not a "the more the merrier" kind a of a story. Your example is simply not properly cooled.

Sadly, every time I see FLIR photos taken of standard class D modules - it is the same story - components running at 70C... but within spec (only just!)
And the way the modules are designed to be mounted to the case/heatsink.... usually demonstrates why they run so hot.

I agree - not properly cooled... but it seems to be commonplace in todays modular amp classD world

 

[dualazmak]

Hello OP @CK. and ASR friends,

Just for your possible interest and reference...

In June 2020, I intensively subjectively compared Yamaha MX-A5200 11-Ch Class-AB AVR power amplifier with Accuphase E-460 Class-AB stereo integrated amplifier at my home in my multichannel multi-SP-driver stereo 2-Ch audio setup, and I (and my wife) could hear the difference in sound quality between the two amplifiers, as shared here on my project thread; that comparative test/audition between Yamaha MX-A5200 and Accuphase E-460 was actually the start of my long and intensive amplifier exploration in my project.

Including that comparative listening session, I have actually tested/auditioned eleven (11) amplifiers at my home in exactly the same acoustic environments using of course the same SP system.

Spoiler

ACCUPHASE E-460 Class-AB stereo integrated amp (as my reference sound system)
YAMAHA MX-A5200 Class-AB 11CH AV amp
DENTEC DP-NC400-4-EXP Class-D 4CH power amp, two units
BENCHMARK AHB2 Class-A(H)B stereo power amp
YAMAHA A-S301 Class-AB budget stereo integrated amp
ROTEL RB-1582 MkII Class-AB stereo power amp
ACCUPHASE A-36 Class-A stereo power amp
TEAC AX-505 Class-D stereo integrated amp
TEAC AP-505 Class-D stereo power amp
YAMAHA A-S3000 Class-AB integrated amp
SONY TA-A1ES quasi Class-A Integrated Amp
Please note that all of these amps, except for YAMAHA A-S301, are capable of XLR balanced input from OKTO DAC8PRO.
Please find the hyperlink index for my multichannel project here and here which includes the links for the details of tests/auditions of these amplifiers.
Details of the latest system setup using four (4) integrated amplifiers as of August 3, 2023: #774

You can find the (provisional) decision on my multiple amplifier selections as of January 2021 in my post here.
Details of the latest system setup using four (4) integrated amplifiers as of August 3, 2023: #774

I believe you can subjectively hear the difference in sound quality of some different amplifiers if you would perform careful and intensive test/audition at your home in your consistent room acoustic environments using excellent HiFi SP drivers; here I mean "excellent HiFi SP drivers" would not always be expensive ones, not always be the most modern ones.

EDIT: For this kind of intensive auditions on amplifiers, we definitely need consistent and excellent-recording-quality "Audio Sampler/Reference Playlist" like my playlist (ref. here and here).

And, of course, your final decision (and compromise) on amplifier(s) would be dependent on your personal preferences as well as on your budget, just like in my example case/project.

In my case, also the (hopeful) durability (including power-supply and heat-sink design) and long-term service/maintenance availability for the amplifiers (ref. here) were/are parts of the many critical factors.

 

[mhardy6647]

It's the old story of Rockefeller, of Standard Oil fame - got his workers to test how minimally they could make the barrels before they leaked - reduce it one weld at a time until it leaked, then had them make the barrels with one extra weld... "Just Enough" manufacturing - maximises immediate profit, while ignoring long term consequences (including to reputation).

It's all to do with what one chooses to value - I prefer slightly more focus on longevity.... (would be nice to see longer warranties to match too!)

The approach became known as Muntzing after Earl "Madman" Muntz, who had his engineers design low-cost TV sets in the (fairly) early broadcast TV era (early 1950s) by deleting parts/sections (e.g., IF sections) until the minimum functional configuration was determined.

Muntz was actually a pretty successful entrepreneur -- and way less crazy than Elon "Madman" Musk, e.g.

Madman Muntz - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The early 1950s Muntz "Jet" automobile.

 

[dualazmak]

Several people here on this thread are discussing about the inside design (and weight) of HiFi integrated amplifiers.

Just for your possible interests and reference, therefore, here you can find inside views of my four integrated amplifiers (Accuphase E-460 24.4 kg, Yamaha A-S3000 24.6 kg, Sony TA-A1ES 19.0 kg, Yamaha A-S301 9.0 kg) all of these I now use in my PC-DSP-based multichannel multi-SP-driver multi-amplifier fully active 2-Ch stereo audio setup (the latest setup can be found here).