Denon AVRs vs Integrated stereo Amplifiers for 2 channel music

[CK.]

Hey guys,

I have a denon 3700 avr and a pair of KEF R3s and a rel sub in an untreated room. Listening distance 3m at 70-75db. Would getting an integrated stereo amplifier like the arcam sa30 produce an audible improvement in 2 channel music listening?

(Btw the arcam has dirac live whereas the denon has audyssey.)

Many thanks!

 

[GXAlan]

Hey guys,

I have a denon 3700 avr and a pair of KEF R3s and a rel sub in an untreated room. Listening distance 3m at 70-75db. Would getting an integrated stereo amplifier like the arcam sa30 produce an audible improvement in 2 channel music listening?

(Btw the arcam has dirac live whereas the denon has audyssey.)

Many thanks!

Short answer is no. You will always get better performance upgrading your speakers. I have the SR250 which was measured at Stereophile and has a similar amplifier section but with an older digital front end (more powerful since it had Dolby Volume and TrueHD/DTS). They are both nice options.

Have you already gotten a UMIK test microphone and the Audyssey iOS app? You can use homebrew Ratbuddysey software to fine tune target curve. MultEQ-X is another option if you want to replicate the control of Dirac with your x3700.

 

[CK.]

Short answer is no. You will always get better performance upgrading your speakers. I have the SR250 which was measured at Stereophile and has a similar amplifier section but with an older digital front end (more powerful since it had Dolby Volume and TrueHD/DTS). They are both nice options.

Have you already gotten a UMIK test microphone and the Audyssey iOS app? You can use homebrew Ratbuddysey software to fine tune target curve. MultEQ-X is another option if you want to replicate the control of Dirac with your x3700.

Thanks for the reply. Basically my speakers measure quite flat and also have a sub. I have also the multieq-x app for the pc and the umik1 and applied the unechoic eq correction above schroeders. So all being equal, you think that there would be no audible improvement moving to a higher quality more powerful stereo amp right?

 

[voodooless]

there would be no audible improvement moving to a higher quality more powerful stereo amp right?

The Arcam doesn’t have substantially more power, not is the distortion really better.

The only thing left then is Dirac vs Audyssey. I don’t think one is much better than the other. Audyssey does have some features Dirac has not like dynamic EQ, which is particularly useful when not listening at high volume.

 

[GXAlan]

So all being equal, you think that there would be no audible improvement moving to a higher quality more powerful stereo amp right?

Not quite. If you search my history, I am someone who thinks there ARE audible differences between electronics that measure pretty well and I have tried to do some blind testing of recordings and done DeltaWave analyses to help correlate things.

This is different than a lot of other people here.

But what I am saying from maybe 20 years into the hobby is what everyone CAN agree on: Good speakers with mediocre electronics sound better than mediocre speakers with stellar electronics.

The problem is that it’s a lot easier to buy, sell, and ship electronics, even big tube amps than buy, sell, ship speakers and subwoofers, especially as you move up in tier.

I would bet the improvement you get with R3 Meta is bigger than the improvement with a new integrated amp in a similar amount of power.

 

[CK.]

The Arcam doesn’t have substantially more power, not is the distortion really better.

The only thing left then is Dirac vs Audyssey. I don’t think one is much better than the other. Audyssey does have some features Dirac has not like dynamic EQ, which is particularly useful when not listening at high volume.

Indeed it does not have a lot more power but then again is it just power that matters? What about the rest of the electronics in the chain? The arcam is actually more expensive than the denon which has 9 power amps and many more features. Does that translate to better sound or is it just economies of scale?
Why so many people claim that a similarly priced stereo amp will sound much better than an avr? Those are the questions that are troubling me

 

[bodhi]

Why so many people claim that a similarly priced stereo amp will sound much better than an avr? Those are the questions that are troubling me

Well, you are in the right place to get those questions answered.

Long story short: people hear differences because they want, very much, to hear differences. And it so happens that our perception when it comes to sound is very easily affected by different biases. And the effect is not subtle, it can be "night and day".

 

[GXAlan]

Indeed it does not have a lot more power but then again is it just power that matters?

Largely. But noise at the 1-5W range can also make a difference.

Load dependency also makes a difference.

What about the rest of the electronics in the chain? The arcam is actually more expensive than the denon which has 9 power amps and many more features. Does that translate to better sound or is it just economies of scale?

Economies of scale in my opinion unless you have some sort of complex load where the SA30 might do better.

Why so many people claim that a similarly priced stereo amp will sound much better than an avr? Those are the questions that are troubling me

You can see some measurements between something like a Marantz Model 40 or Model 30 versus a similarly priced AVR from Marantz. You can also see the wide variability in performance of “an AVR.” The X3700H is an unusually good AVR.

 

[voodooless]

Largely. But noise at the 1-5W range can also make a difference.

The Arcam isn’t better at SNR though…

 

[CK.]

Not quite. If you search my history, I am someone who thinks there ARE audible differences between electronics that measure pretty well and I have tried to do some blind testing of recordings and done DeltaWave analyses to help correlate things.

This is different than a lot of other people here.

But what I am saying from maybe 20 years into the hobby is what everyone CAN agree on: Good speakers with mediocre electronics sound better than mediocre speakers with stellar electronics.

The problem is that it’s a lot easier to buy, sell, and ship electronics, even big tube amps than buy, sell, ship speakers and subwoofers, especially as you move up in tier.

I would bet the improvement you get with R3 Meta is bigger than the improvement with a new integrated amp in a similar amount of power.

Well thats good to know because that saves me money. It is next to impossible to let me audition electronics in my own space.
On the note of speakers, having eq available and a subwoofer with a good directivity speaker like the r3 makes me wonder how audibly better would more expensive speakers be especially taking into account the room influence.

 

[GXAlan]

Well thats good to know because that saves me money. It is next to impossible to let me audition electronics in my own space.

I have had Accuphase, McIntosh, Marantz Reference SA-10/PM-10, Topping, etc. Just keep your upgrade budget in the bank and make big moves each time with speakers.

On the note of speakers, having eq available and a subwoofer with a good directivity speaker like the r3 makes me wonder how audibly better would more expensive speakers be especially taking into account the room influence.

What we don’t see on the measurements is the subjective sense of resolution or compression.

Phase matters very little, but particularly in multichannel setups, it may make a difference in some conditions.

Zero Phase In Studio Monitors

This Voice Coil’s Spotlight, written by Vance Dickason with commentary from Floyd Toole, Wolfgang Klippel, Andrew Jones, and James Croft, focuses on Zero Phase in Studio Monitors. As Dickason explains, "the implication of using FIR filters to zero out the phase of a loudspeaker to improve its...

audioxpress.com

Linearity is hinted at with 86 and 96 dB measurements here along with distortion. But the spin here is just as 76 dB.

Then, there is multitone testing for speakers.

 

[Chrispy]

I've compared my 2ch separates to my avrs "for music" and find the feature set of the avrs to be more useful, particularly sub integration (and the separates had twice the amp power). The Arcam doesn't provide for a sub particularly. I'd stick to the avr, never understood all the fascination with 2ch integrated amps for the most part....

 

[Golf]

Maybe it will help to have a look at the »inner values«. Candidates here may be Denon’s AVR-X3800H and PMA-1700NE. Guess which is which – and which one could possibly be the better 2-channel pal for you ...

 

[antcollinet]

Maybe it will help to have a look at the »inner values«. Candidates here may be Denon’s AVR-X3800H and PMA-1700NE. Guess which is which – and which one could possibly be the better 2-channel pal for you ...

View attachment 350376

Looking at the internals of two devices tells you next to nothing about the relative audio merits of them. You need measurements for that.

Sure - the one that looks like it is better laid out will often also have better performance - but it is far from a given. It is even less a given that any performance benefit will give an audible benefit.

 

[Golf]

You need measurements for that.

No problem at all. What about weight? One is 17.6 kg (doing 2 channels), the other one 12.5 kg (doing 9 channels).

 

[Chrispy]

Maybe it will help to have a look at the »inner values«. Candidates here may be Denon’s AVR-X3800H and PMA-1700NE. Guess which is which – and which one could possibly be the better 2-channel pal for you ...

View attachment 350376

Still no bass management in the integrated amp...and the power isn't that different, avr still has a slight advantage there. If you want a heavier box, go for the integrated amp

 

[GXAlan]

never understood all the fascination with 2ch integrated amps for the most part....

We are really looking at a renaissance of AVRs. The Anthem MRX520 was a premium AVR in its era and most AVRs a few years back had trouble with 4 ohm speakers unless it was a formal THX Ultra certification.

The Arcam SA30 is excellent for a *slim* integrated amp. But if you look at it, it’s built like an AVR…

The predecessor SR250 was an AVR, but at least you had the benefit of bitstream decoding and a ton of HDMI inputs.

 

[Golf]

Still no bass management in the integrated amp...

Could you actually imaging why?

 

[Golf]

The Arcam SA30 is excellent for a *slim* integrated amp.

Really slim: Only 12 Kg. And made in China ...

 

[GXAlan]

Really slim: Only 12 Kg. And made in China ...

More about height. It’s all relative, of course. Excellent from the standpoint that the Marantz Stereo 70 and Cinema 70 aren’t as nice.

But your point is well taken. People vote with their wallet, and I run the Monolith HTP-1 (USA) with Meyer Sound (USA), Bose 901 (Canada), and a number of subwoofers from JL Audio, Velodyne, Meyer Sound, and old school JBL Synthesis (USA).