Denon AVR-X6800H now released.

[dave999z]

That didn’t work. Did a full factory reset. That didn’t work either. It simply will not remember the last used sound mode for a given type of signal:

I play a DD signal, set it to DD, then play another type of signal, then play a DD signal again and it uses the DD + DSurr mode.

With an Atmos signal I’ll set it to Atmos sound mode, then play another signal type, then play an Atmos signal again amd it will choose sound mode DD+ or DD+ + DSurr.

This is so incredibly frustrating. I can’t believe I might have to open a case with them over this and fight about a replacement. (Too late to return.)

 

[-Matt-]

Had a quick look in the manual... It could be that you want "Auto surround playback" enabled:

FWIW, I prefer to use the Dolby Surround upmixer for everything but Atmos.

I find the level of bass seems different between DD and Dolby Surround (higher for DD) and I have it dialed in for Dolby Surround.

I also prefer to make use of all the surround speakers, rather than having them sit idle.

 

[dave999z]

Thanks, but I don't believe that't the issue. Auto surround playback is just a sound mode (like any other) where it happens to choose the "best" algorithm for you. So if you're watching a DD+ signal and you select Auto sound mode, it will choose an algorithm for you (not necessarily the one you want). And then the next time you watch a DD+ signal it will return to Auto mode and choose the "best" algorithm for you. But it chooses the one it wants, which is usually an upmixing mode. In my case I do not want to use upmixing modes (would personally rather speakers sit idle) and shouldn't be forced to.

When I play a DD+ signal, I manually put it on DD+ sound mode. Then the next time I play a DD+ signal it should return to that same DD+ sound mode. But it doesn't. It's maddening.

Fwiw, I'm using a Roku Ultra plugged into a Sony A95L tv, which is connected to the Denon via eARC.

Can anyone who is using eARC as their only input (so the source is "TV Audio") confirm that if you go to, say, Netflix and play an Atmos title and select Atmos mode, then play a DD+ title and select DD+ mode, then go back and forth playing those same two titles staying within the Netflix app), that your 6800 is correctly switching back and forth between Atmos mode and DD+ mode (as opposed to using a "+ DSurr" mode) without you having to manually change it every time?

 

[-Matt-]

I just tested with my AVC-X8500HA and Netflix on LG OLED via eARC, it works the same as yours.

When you select Atmos you are actually selecting a mode that is "Atmos / DSur" on the front panel. When you then switch to a DD+ programme it reverts from Atmos to DSur.

If I manually select DD+ and then switch to an Atmos programme it remains in DD+ and I have to manually switch back to "Atmos / DSur" mode (or initiate auto switching by pressing pure 3 times).

I think this is functioning as expected and not a fault (although I realise that it is not the way you want it).

In auto mode it always seems to default to DSur for DD+ programmes. (I'm also stuck with manually selecting modes rather than using Auto because I prefer to use DSur even for Stereo programmes).


Attempting to think of a workaround for you...
Is it possible to plug the Roku Ultra into one of the AVR inputs? If you do this do you get the same behaviour?

(It will probably continue to default to DSur for DD+ programmes, but at least if you do this you will able to use the AVR's on screen menu to select the surround mode).


I guess it could be a nice feature request to be able to set personal preferences for auto surround modes on a per programme type basis (perhaps in an advanced menu in the web gui).

 

[dave999z]

I just tested with my AVC-X8500HA and Netflix on LG OLED via eARC, it works the same as yours.

When you select Atmos you are actually selecting a mode that is "Atmos / DSur" on the front panel. When you then switch to a DD+ programme it reverts from Atmos to DSur.

I think this is functioning as expected and not a fault (although I realise that it is not the way you want it).

I tried the auto mode too and it also defaults to DSur for DD+ programmes.


Attempting to think of a workaround for you...
Is it possible to plug the Roku Ultra into one of the AVR inputs? If you do this do you get the same behaviour?

(It will probably continue to default to DSur for DD+ programmes, but at least if you do this you will able to use the AVR's on screen menu to select the surround mode).

First of all, THANK YOU very much for testing this. Very helpful to at least know it may not just be my unit functioning differently than other units. If anyone with a 6800 could possible also test this, I would be grateful.

I have only had this receiver a short time, but I swear there was a period in which it was correctly remembering the four sound modes I use (Stereo, DD, DD+, and Atmos) for those respective signal types. But now it insists on the DSurr modes. WTF Denon! That is not how it is described in the manual and is an incredibly annoying behavior. I understand it choosing those if in Auto mode. But if you manually select non upmixing modes, it is supposed to remember that and not make you check and select it each and every time you play a different signal type. I have to think this is a bug and not the intended behavior.

I don't want to plug my Roku into the 6800 because I also use my TV's internal apps for some content, and I don't want to have to keep switching inputs on the 6800. Also, I suspect (as you do) it wouldn't make a difference. I may try to test it just to see if the issue is specific to eARC. It's a drag to pull my receiver out of the cabinet though.

 

[-Matt-]

Another thought (not tried)...

Can you use the Movie, Music and Game presets as a workaround?...

Eg:
Play a Stereo programme and switch to Music mode - set output to Stereo.

Play a DD programme and switch to Game - set output to DD.

Play a DD+ programme and switch to Movie - set output to DD+.

Play an Atmos programme and switch to Auto (pure 3x) - sets output to Atmos / DSur.


Then if you switch back to a stereo programme, does it automatically switch to Music mode with stereo output?

Or maybe, thereafter, you just have to press Music once to go to Stereo mode?
Press Movie once for DD+
Press Game once for DD

(It does mention at the bottom of the above that the default mode is Atmos / DSur).

 

[dave999z]

Another thought (not tried)...

Can you use the Movie, Music and Game presets as a workaround?...

Eg:
Play a Stereo programme and switch to Music mode - set output to Stereo.

Play a DD programme and switch to Game - set output to DD.

Play a DD+ programme and switch to Movie - set output to DD+.

Play an Atmos programme and switch to Auto (pure 3x) - sets output to Atmos / DSur.


Then if you switch back to a stereo programme, does it automatically switch to Music mode with stereo output?

I had the same thought and already tried this. Unfortunately didn't work.

I have stored Stereo, DD, DD+, and Atmos as quickselect options. So I can switch to them quickly via either the Denon remote or Denon app. But I don't want to have to constantly check what the incoming signal is (that's the annoying part), and then switch to the correct corresponding sound mode. I want it to just recognize the signal type and choose the last sound mode I used for that signal type, without my having to check or do anything. I can't believe a $3k piece of kit doesn't do this.

 

[-Matt-]

Did some more testing with Virgin Media cable TV box plugged direct to the AVR...

In this case it seems better at remembering sound modes (so Roku direct to AVR might actually make a difference).

First select Auto mode (pure 3x). Importantly, this seems to reset the sound mode memory to default.

Then, as I switch through programmes the Auto select is working. (But not necessarily with the sound mode choices I want). When I come to a stereo programme (being output in stereo) if I press Movie and select DSur instead that seems to be committed to the memory. Thereafter when I switch to a stereo programme it outputs in DSur. (Note, this override will be reset if you ever select Auto again).

By default in Auto it will output DD+ programmes in "DD+ + DSur" mode (which I'm ok with, but you don't want). But if I use the Movie button to force it to output in DD+ it does seem to remember that setting.


In summary, Auto sound mode behaves differently for:
1) LG OLED Netflix via eARC.
2 VM Tivo V6 HDMI direct to AVR.


Auto mode might well behave the way you want if you plug direct to the AVR, then set Auto mode, then overrided the default sound mode choices (once).

 

[dave999z]

Did some more testing with Virgin Media cable TV box plugged direct to the AVR...

In this case it seems better at remembering sound modes (so Roku direct to AVR might actually make a difference).

First select Auto mode (pure 3x). Importantly, this seems to reset the sound mode memory to default.

Then, as I switch through programmes the Auto select is working. (But not necessarily with the sound mode choices I want). When I come to a stereo programme (being output in stereo) if I press Movie and select DSur instead that seems to be committed to the memory. Thereafter when I switch to a stereo programme it outputs in DSur. (Note, this override will be reset if you ever select Auto again).

By default in Auto it will output DD+ programmes in "DD+ + DSur" mode (which I'm ok with, but you don't want). But if I use the Movie button to force it to output in DD+ it does seem to remember that setting.


In summary, Auto sound mode behaves differently for:
1) LG OLED Netflix via eARC.
2 VM Tivo V6 HDMI direct to AVR.


Auto mode might well behave the way you want if you plug direct to the AVR, then set Auto mode, then overrided the default sound mode choices (once).

This is very useful to know. Thanks again for investigating this behavior. I will try it this weekend (when I can pull my receiver out) but will also contact Denon and see what they say.

 

[EWL5]

First of all, THANK YOU very much for testing this. Very helpful to at least know it may not just be my unit functioning differently than other units. If anyone with a 6800 could possible also test this, I would be grateful.

I have only had this receiver a short time, but I swear there was a period in which it was correctly remembering the four sound modes I use (Stereo, DD, DD+, and Atmos) for those respective signal types. But now it insists on the DSurr modes. WTF Denon! That is not how it is described in the manual and is an incredibly annoying behavior. I understand it choosing those if in Auto mode. But if you manually select non upmixing modes, it is supposed to remember that and not make you check and select it each and every time you play a different signal type. I have to think this is a bug and not the intended behavior.

I don't want to plug my Roku into the 6800 because I also use my TV's internal apps for some content, and I don't want to have to keep switching inputs on the 6800. Also, I suspect (as you do) it wouldn't make a difference. I may try to test it just to see if the issue is specific to eARC. It's a drag to pull my receiver out of the cabinet though.

Are you using primarily an Apple TV? It only outputs PCM unless it detects Atmos objects.

 

[-Matt-]

This is very useful to know. Thanks again for investigating this behavior. I will try it this weekend (when I can pull my receiver out) but will also contact Denon and see what they say.

Good luck, I hope it helps even if it won't solve the problem for TV apps.

(It should go without saying but be careful moving it. AVRs are heavy and awkward and if you aren't careful the wires can pull on the terminals and cause damage).

 

[-Matt-]

Did some more testing with Virgin Media cable TV box plugged direct to the AVR...

In this case it seems better at remembering sound modes (so Roku direct to AVR might actually make a difference).

First select Auto mode (pure 3x). Importantly, this seems to reset the sound mode memory to default.

Then, as I switch through programmes the Auto select is working. (But not necessarily with the sound mode choices I want). When I come to a stereo programme (being output in stereo) if I press Movie and select DSur instead that seems to be committed to the memory. Thereafter when I switch to a stereo programme it outputs in DSur. (Note, this override will be reset if you ever select Auto again).

By default in Auto it will output DD+ programmes in "DD+ + DSur" mode (which I'm ok with, but you don't want). But if I use the Movie button to force it to output in DD+ it does seem to remember that setting.


In summary, Auto sound mode behaves differently for:
1) LG OLED Netflix via eARC.
2 VM Tivo V6 HDMI direct to AVR.


Auto mode might well behave the way you want if you plug direct to the AVR, then set Auto mode, then overrided the default sound mode choices (once).

Adding to this...

I was able to test Atmos on LG OLED Netflix via eARC, but not on Virgin media direct HDMI to AVR.

It occurs to me that the streaming version of Atmos might actually be contained in a DD+ stream:

Technology Dolby Audio Dolby Digital Plus | Dolby Developer

Dolby Digital Plus (E-AC-3) provides up to twice the efficiency of Dolby Digital while adding new features like 7.1-ch audio, support for descriptive video services, and support for Dolby Atmos. Dolby Digital Plus is widely used by streaming and broadcast services to deliver surround sound audio...

developer.dolby.com

If so, this might cause problems for automatic switching between DD+ and the streaming version of Atmos (I.E. the AVR tries to use the same sound mode for both):

1) If you force the AVR into DD+ mode it won't automatically switch to Atmos.

2) If you select "Atmos + DSur" mode, Atmos streams will play in Atmos, but DD+ streams will be output in "DD+ + DSur".

This is consistent with what I found when testing with Netflix via eARC.


Note: This stuff is probably the same for all recent Denon / Marantz units.

 

[dave999z]

Adding to this...

I was able to test Atmos on LG OLED Netflix via eARC, but not on Virgin media direct HDMI to AVR.

It occurs to me that the streaming version of Atmos might actually be contained in a DD+ stream:

Technology Dolby Audio Dolby Digital Plus | Dolby Developer

Dolby Digital Plus (E-AC-3) provides up to twice the efficiency of Dolby Digital while adding new features like 7.1-ch audio, support for descriptive video services, and support for Dolby Atmos. Dolby Digital Plus is widely used by streaming and broadcast services to deliver surround sound audio...

developer.dolby.com

If so, this might cause problems for automatic switching between DD+ and the streaming version of Atmos (I.E. the AVR tries to use the same sound mode for both):

1) If you force the AVR into DD+ mode it won't automatically switch to Atmos.

2) If you select "Atmos + DSur" mode, Atmos streams will play in Atmos, but DD+ streams will be output in "DD+ + DSur".

This is consistent with what I found when testing with Netflix via eARC.


Note: This stuff is probably the same for all recent Denon / Marantz units.

I called Denon, and the guy was not very helpful. He just said it chooses whatever the source tells it to choose, without really grasping what I was asking him about (i.e., does it remember the last sound mode for a given signal type, or doesn't it).

Anyway, I think you're onto something here. I just tried flipping among signals that are Stereo, DD, and DD+. It was correctly remembering those three sound modes. I did not try an Atmos signal. You are right that Atmos is encoded on top of DD+ for streaming. But can't the receiver deal with this as a signal type? My tv tells me when it sees the signal is Atmos. The receiver obviously can recognize and decode the signal when an Atmos layer is embedded on top of DD+. I don't see why it can't treat that as a separate signal type and remember what sound mode to go to. How incredibly annoying.

 

[dave999z]

Anyone know what this setting is really supposed to do?

I was looking for a way to turn off all upmixing. I don't know what this speaker virtualizer setting is. It doesn't seem to appear in surround parameters on the Denon app, no matter what sound mode I'm in.

 

[-Matt-]

Anyone know what this setting is really supposed to do?

View attachment 389512

I was looking for a way to turn off all upmixing. I don't know what this speaker virtualizer setting is. It doesn't seem to appear in surround parameters on the Denon app, no matter what sound mode I'm in.

I think that setting is only available if you don't have any height speakers connected.

When it is on it will try to simulate height speakers by applying frequency shifts to the height channel audio and playing this through the base 5.1 speakers.

 

[Newman]

The receiver obviously can recognize and decode the signal when an Atmos layer is embedded on top of DD+. I don't see why it can't treat that as a separate signal type and remember what sound mode to go to. How incredibly annoying.

Are you saying that this is a Denon-specific behaviour?

 

[-Matt-]

Are you saying that this is a Denon-specific behaviour?

Not addressed to me but...

We have been discussing the auto surround mode switching of Denon / Marantz AVRs. (And the AVRs capability (or not) to remember user choices of output mode for each sound format).

Other brands may or may not have similar difficulties in automatically switching between streaming Atmos content and DD+ content (in the specific case where you don't want to use Dolby Surround upmixer for DD+). I don't know.

The other factor in all this is that the source also has to correctly send the metadata to identify the sound format. This is perhaps especially important when the programme sound format changes without switching between AVR inputs.

 

[dave999z]

I think this is a huge deficiency on Denon’s part. It seems it treats DD+ content and DD+ containing Atmos metadata content as one type of signal for the purpose of remembering which sound mode you used last for that type of signal. But it’s two different signal types! That creates a headache if you want to use a different sound mode for those two signal types. This approach is lazy. They absolutely could code it differently. Alas, apparently not enough people have cared about this (which really surprises me) to complain about it, so there’s no way they’ll change it in a firmware update. What a shame for a super expensive receiver that could be set and forget but instead makes you do extra steps every time you watch two very common signal types. What a poor implementation Denon.

 

[Newman]

Not addressed to me but...

We have been discussing the auto surround mode switching of Denon / Marantz AVRs. (And the AVRs capability (or not) to remember user choices of output mode for each sound format).

Other brands may or may not have similar difficulties in automatically switching between streaming Atmos content and DD+ content (in the specific case where you don't want to use Dolby Surround upmixer for DD+). I don't know.

The other factor in all this is that the source also has to correctly send the metadata to identify the sound format. This is perhaps especially important when the programme sound format changes without switching between AVR inputs.

Thanks, I had lost track!

 

[shinseiRomeo]

Awesome, that's a whole new world to dive into. I was just getting started with REW and have made some nice changes in the 20-300Hz region (mostly the massive 35Hz and 70Hz room gain spikes). Luckily my Arendal 1723 1S subwoofer also has a 7 band PEQ built-in. Thanks for helping me out here!

I have to say, I thought I knew a little bit about home theater and AVR. I admit I just read your post and have no idea what most of your reply even means!